Disappointment? maybe.

[ptone]

Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

[jthtiger]

Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

For my very first show, I didn't have the community here. I used what I knew, which was professional lighting and music equipment. I had two DMX dimmer packs (4 channels each) and a traditional lighting console. With faders and everything. I programmed scenes into the console and then connected the console via MIDI to my laptop. I was running ProTools M-Powered 7 on my laptop with an M-Audio Firewire 410. I placed my music into a track in PT and then was able to place MIDI events on a timeline which corresponded to the music (it was gridded in tempo with the music, so I could place events directly on the beat). The MIDI events would trigger the different scenes of the console and voila! You can make it as tight as you want, all the way down to 1/64th of a beat.

My second year, I used Vixen. It was much more difficult to get the tight sequence, yes. Maybe if we had sequencing software with beat analysis and tempo controls. That way we can fill in the boxes on the beat.

I don't have my dimmer packs this year because they are being used at my church. Hopefully next year, I can build some of the dimmers here.

-Tyler Herron

[magic8192]

I would love to see some video of your show.   If it looks better than Holdman's then you will be winning awards all over the place.

You have chosen to criticize one of the best looking shows around.

[jthtiger]

I've never seen this community get so hostile before. I didn't criticize the Holdman display, it's wonderful. I said there was room for improvement. Which, there is always room for improvement no matter what you're doing. I agree, I didn't come off as I had intended, and I apologize deeply if I hurt anyone.

In the original post, I asked for your opinions on why the sequences don't sync perfectly with the music. Some of you answered that:

A lot of times, people will film their displays and then lay the audio over the top. It is not always easy to get the audio and video synchronized.

Until we don’t have software that can make sequencing easier to a new level probably we won’t see too often amazing sequences.

Cas.

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

I just wanted your opinions on this matter. I'm new at this. I've only gotten my feet wet with Vixen. I haven't touched any of the other programs so I don't know what they are like. I just know what worked for me the first year, and what was difficult about it the second year. Which I expected. The first year I was using ALL professional equipment, because that's what I had access too. The next year, I wanted to see how everyone else was doing it. I commend you guys, because you've managed to put on some amazing displays on an extremely low budget!

And please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I have more money than you guys do, or am better because I used professional equipment. I work with stage lighting all the time. I've built up my own small lighting rig to put on concerts with over the past 4 years starting when I was 14. That's just what I had lying around, so it didn't cost me anything at the time.

Again, I'm sorry if you guys thought I was putting down the displays because that is totally not what I intended. I just simply wanted you're opinions on why it was so difficult to sequence the lights. Which has been answered. The hardware and creativity has surpassed the software at the moment.

-Tyler Herron

[magic8192]

I am not being hostile, but when I saw the video you were referencing, I was a little surprised.  I would bet most people on this site have used ideas from Holdman's display.  

There is nothing wrong with setting the bar high.

I will agree with you about the arches.  they are the weakest point of his display.  

[rrowan]

I think everyone has made their points

Please no more attacks on Tyler. He has repeated his thoughts in a better way and has also apologize for the first post.

I think we all need to get back to working on our displays and helping others.

Tyler, I mistook your first post and I also apologize if I said anything to offend you.

Cheers

Rick R.

[Greg]

Oh come on Rick, I didn't get a chance to make a point or two... 

I tend to be my own harshest critic as many of us do and my sequences are never good enough for me but, the public who return over and over to watch apparently doesn't mind if I think it isn't quite up to par.  I've determined that my internal critic strongly prefers events to slightly lead the music if they cannot be exactly on the beat and late events are to be avoided at all costs.

As for videos... Like many, I overdub the audio onto the video and syncing can be challenging with less than pro equipment.  For instance, unbeknownst prior to editing, the camera I used last year captured the NTSC video at 30.03 frames per second rather than at the correct rate of 29.97 frames per second.  In less than pro level editing systems, correcting this sort of problem is impossible and the longer the video is, the worse the A/V sync problem is going to get. 

Anyhow...  Perfection does not exist and all we can do is try to the best of our ability within time constraints to get it close enough not to be objectionable to our harshest critic which for me is myself.

okay I'm done, everyone can now wake up.

Greg

[ptone]

Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

For my very first show, I didn't have the community here. I used what I knew, which was professional lighting and music equipment. I had two DMX dimmer packs (4 channels each) and a traditional lighting console. With faders and everything. I programmed scenes into the console and then connected the console via MIDI to my laptop. I was running ProTools M-Powered 7 on my laptop with an M-Audio Firewire 410. I placed my music into a track in PT and then was able to place MIDI events on a timeline which corresponded to the music (it was gridded in tempo with the music, so I could place events directly on the beat). The MIDI events would trigger the different scenes of the console and voila! You can make it as tight as you want, all the way down to 1/64th of a beat.

My second year, I used Vixen. It was much more difficult to get the tight sequence, yes. Maybe if we had sequencing software with beat analysis and tempo controls. That way we can fill in the boxes on the beat.

I don't have my dimmer packs this year because they are being used at my church. Hopefully next year, I can build some of the dimmers here.

-Tyler Herron

Tyler, I'm currently going down the path of using midi - but am building something that goes between midi and DMX.  Actually MIDI can/will be just one of several trigger options (I've already demoed using the Kinect 3D sensor).

Here are a couple links describing the start of the project - it's a bit more for the technical crowd, and primarily will run on Mac, Linux.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

-P

[sean815]

I understand what Tyler is saying because I put a lot of effort in the sequencing to match music with movement and colors.

HOWEVER... Im happy just to see some mismatched boxes of mini lights thrown up in someones tree or a Gemmy light show product on a bush. TOO many people now a days don't do anything at all and it is kinda saddening!

[jthtiger]

@ptone that looks promising! Are you coding in Python? I think I read that in there (I'll admit, I kind of skimmed it. Was reading on my phone). I wish I knew Python. I'm a java guy myself. The year after I left my high school, they started offering a python course. Made me mad. I think if the next sequencing software, at the very least, should have a timeline with tempo controls. I can see something like Vixen being very useful if the timeline was gridded with a beat and could change dynamically to a tempo.

@sean815 Bahaha! I know what you mean. There's a house near here that has a single set of lights along the top of their fence. The lights are alternating white and blue incandescents. However, they are the only house along that street with lights on them. They got the spirit!

-Tyler Herron

[rogerwh]

Tyler - I think Rick hit it best when he said that most of us just aren't very good at music.  My son destroy's me on guitar hero because even with the visual clues I can't get it right.  Eliminate the visual portion, and well, let's just say I could make noise that would drive the dogs under the house. 

Believe me, folks on here are the most helpful and sharing that I have ever seen.  AS has been mentioned, RJ is the king when it comes to hardware.  But software wise, it seems we're still a step or two behind the hardware.  Any tidbits you could give the community to improve the shows would be very welcome.  But always remember, most of us on here are just overgrown kids and as long as we have blinking and flashing that we can control, everything beyond that is gravy.

[rm357]

For me it's just a question of learning the software and time constraints. My first sequence is only 1 minute and 22 seconds, but it took me over three hours to program 74 channels... (video is coming soon). I want to add two more songs (2 min and 4 min respectively) before Christmas, but with everything else going on in December, there is not a lot of time available...

RM