Author Topic: LED Circuit design question  (Read 1402 times)

Offline cpnbnanamn

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LED Circuit design question
« on: July 16, 2010, »
This is a call to any one of the many electronic gurus that may be lurking around here!  I could REALLY use some expertise!

  My first controlled display this year will be for Halloween.  I have already started building controllers and props, etc, and I have one in particular that I want to add a pair of LED 'eyes' to, so that they can be controlled by one of the channels of a controller (You know, so that my character can 'sing' along?)

Problem I'm running into:
   I know that LED's are supposed to be run from DC voltage, and I'm afraid that a wall-wart won't have the reaction time necessary to make this happen (because of capacitor charge/ discharge).  Is this true?  Am I thinking correctly on this?  Does anyone have a circuit in mind that I could use in this respect?
  
  Any help you guys could provide would be GREATLY appreciated.  It would make my first display ROCK!

Thanks!

-Roger
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, by cpnbnanamn »
-Roger

I'm hoping to go NUTS this year!

Offline trekster

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Re: LED Circuit design question
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, »
Use the DC with the capacitors to supply the LEDs.  But use a small 120v relay to switch the low voltage DC on and off at the blink of an eye so to speak.

Or I bet you could use a full wave bridge and a very small capacitor to get instant on and off.

Ron
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, by trekster »
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Offline cpnbnanamn

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Re: LED Circuit design question
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, »
And there's my problem..  While I know exactly what you mean, I lack the knowledge and experience to know what parts I should be using.  And I know (from experience) that 120VAC isn't fun to get bitten by. 
 
  How is it that there are 120VAC driven strings of LED's without a DC conversion or am I just not seeing it)?

My electronics training only goes so far... and it's WAY out of practice.  If this were a network design or troubleshooting question, I'd be all over it.. 

Help?

-Roger
-Roger

I'm hoping to go NUTS this year!

Offline RJ

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Re: LED Circuit design question
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, »
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  How is it that there are 120VAC driven strings of LED's without a DC conversion or am I just not seeing it)?

-Roger


First answer for the first post is that you simply need a DC controller. The Mr16 controller can do this. All you do is leave the Mosfets off of it  and jumper them, then set the single current limiting resistor to the right size for the current of the leds you are using. Feed the Mr16 7 - 24 volts from a wall wart or other power supply and you have 16 dmx controlled led channels. This is a constant current setup so no resistor is needed on the leds.

To answer the quoted question :

The leds are light emitting diodes. Diodes are one way check valves that only let power flow one direction. a rectifer is nothing more than a diode.  When we use a rectifer to make dc from ac we are using diodes to do so. They just do not make light while doing it. So in a simple way a string of leds is a string of rectifiers that make the ac only go one direction (DC) but give us light while they do it.

Hope this clears it up some.

If you use a MR16 let me know I can do a simple how to on setting it up for LED constant current. It was intended to do both this and the higher current stuff with just these changes.

RJ

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Offline cpnbnanamn

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Re: LED Circuit design question
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, »
Quote
First answer for the first post is that you simply need a DC controller. The Mr16 controller can do this. All you do is leave the Mosfets off of it  and jumper them, then set the single current limiting resistor to the right size for the current of the leds you are using. Feed the Mr16 7 - 24 volts from a wall wart or other power supply and you have 16 dmx controlled led channels. This is a constant current setup so no resistor is needed on the leds.

To answer the quoted question :

The leds are light emitting diodes. Diodes are one way check valves that only let power flow one direction. a rectifer is nothing more than a diode.  When we use a rectifer to make dc from ac we are using diodes to do so. They just do not make light while doing it. So in a simple way a string of leds is a string of rectifiers that make the ac only go one direction (DC) but give us light while they do it.

Hope this clears it up some.

If you use a MR16 let me know I can do a simple how to on setting it up for LED constant current. It was intended to do both this and the higher current stuff with just these changes.

RJ



RJ, I was hoping you'd chime in. 
 
So if I understand correctly, these LED strings are wired in series to get a constant 'on' state...  Parallel would make them pulse?

And I guess I need to read up on the MR16, and then obtain one...

Thanks a ton, to everyone.  This isn't done yet.


-Roger
-Roger

I'm hoping to go NUTS this year!

Offline RJ

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Re: LED Circuit design question
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, »
Yes but some of them have full wave rectifiers in line to make them on the whole cycle and some do not and are on hale the time (half wave vs full wave leds strings).

RJ
Innovation beats imitation - and it's more satisfying

Offline austindave

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Re: LED Circuit design question
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, »
Roger,

I think there's some confusion about the series / parallel question - and the "pulsing" of LED strings.

The main practical difference between a series and parallel light string is the voltage rating of the lamps. A series connected set divides the supply voltage over all the lamps in the string; a parallel connection provides the full supply voltage to each lamp. LED's pretty much need to be connected in series, since they're usually rated at only a few volts each (see the detailed explanation I provide below).

As to the "pulsing", I'm assuming you're talking about the very fast flicker (60 cycles per second) you see with some LED strings. As RJ says, that flicker is due to the nature of LEDs connected to an AC source in a half-wave configuration... The string turns on for less than half the 60 hz AC cycle. And as RJ says, a full-wave rectifier will cause the string to turn on twice during each cycle, dramatically reducing the apparent flicker (making it much more difficult to detect - though the LEDs will still be flashing, they'll be doing so at 120 times per second instead of 60 and will be on for a much larger percentage of the time).

But the LED flicker has nothing to do with whether the lamps are connected in series or parallel - just whether there is a separate full-wave rectifier in the string.

Explanation of a series-connected lamp string:
Just like with "regular" incandescent light strings where the lamps are wired in series, the voltage across each LED (lamp) is only a small part of the supply voltage. Series connections are "voltage dividers". For lamps or LEDs, the 120v source power is divided evenly (more or less) across all of the LEDs. So if there are 40 LEDs (lamps) in a series string, each LED (lamp) will only have 3 volts across it (120/40 = 3), assuming all the other LEDs (lamps) are working properly.  

[Technical discussion follows - feel free to ignore]
The nitty-gritty explanation of this is that in series connection, resistances add. Ohm's law (which defines the relationship between voltage, current and resistance) says: Voltage=Current x Resistance (in volts, amps & ohms, respectively). In a series circuit, the resistance (as "seen" by the power supply) is the sum of the resistance of the elements. This sets the current in the circuit. The current from the power supply is the power supply voltage divided by the total series resistance. Note that the same current flows through ALL the series elements - the current from the power supply is the same as the current through lamp(1), which is the same as the current through lamp(n) (current is the rate of electron flow - the same electrons have to flow through each element of the series circuit). Now, because each series element only contributes a part of the total circuit resistance, it only "sees" its part of the total voltage (by Ohm's law, since each element's resistance is only part of the total circuit resistance, it's voltage is also only part ot the total circuit voltage).

So, for example, say we have a light string (or LED string) rated for 120VAC. And let's say that there are 100 lamps connected in series in that string. And, further, let's say that each lamp has a resistance of 1 Ohm. The series resistance is 100 Ohms (100 lamps x 1 Ohm per lamp). The current in the circuit is 1.2 amps (Ohm's law: Current = Voltage / Resistance: 1.2A = 120V / 100ohms). And we can calculate the voltage across each lamp as 1.2 volts (voltage = current x resistance; v = 1.2A x 1 ohm). Note that the values picked for this example were selected for mathematical simplicity - they are not "real world" numbers.

But we can bypass a lot of this analysis. In this example, since there are 100 "identical" lamps attached across the 120volt power source, we know that each lamp will only have 120v/100 lamps or 1.2 volts/lamp across it (though we won't know what the current or resistance is).

Finally, in a parallel configuration, each lamp is connected directly across the power source, so each lamp will be exposed to the full 120v. In this configuration, the current is additive - that is, the current provided by the power supply is the sum of the currents drawn by each of the lamps (each electron flows through only one lamp and back to the power supply - the total number of electrons is the sum of those passing through the individual lamps, so if there are 100 lamps in parallel, the total current is 100x one lamp's current draw).


Hope this helps someone (at least a little).

--Dave
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, by austindave »
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