DiyLightAnimation
Hardware => Lynx Smart String => Topic started by: urthegman on February 25, 2011,
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I have calculated my power consumption at maximum to be approximately 45 amps and approximately 500 watts. Other than spending too much money, can any damage be done by using a power supply rated for 750 watts or on the flip side are there any advantages? Also what type of connector for the hub should the supply have. Thanks in advance for any help. George
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a 750 watt power supply is rated for all the rails in the supply combined.
you want to look at the supply's Amp rating on the 12v rail. and it's a good idea to get a single rail power supply.
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SS Hub - Power Supplies - last updated 3/3/2010
All prices shown are price including shipping. AR=after rebate price Some old prices may be striked out.
21A / $14 (AR) $24 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152032 [RAIDMAX] **unproven brand**
29a / $29 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817101050 [EPOWER] **unproven brand**
34a / $51 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817101052 [EPOWER] **unproven brand**
40a / $40 $64 NO STOCK ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371030 [ANTEC, 80 PLUS] ;D
40a / $60 (FS, amazon) ... http://tinyurl.com/4ajj8wo [CORSAIR] ;D
50a / $60 $96 $66 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182200 [ROSEWILL, 80 PLUS] :(
52a / $61 (AR) ... http://tinyurl.com/4k46f3w [CORSAIR, 80 PLUS] ;D ;D
...3/3 $81 with code EMCKGKG26 . A $20 prepaid card is available by mail-in rebate.
53a / $80 (AR) $104 .... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139020 [CORSAIR, 80 PLUS BRONZE] ;D
54a / $70 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182191 [ROSEWILL, 80 PLUS] :(
60a / $100 (AR) $90 (AR) ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006 [CORSAIR, 80 PLUS] ;D
...3/3 $99 with code EMCKGKG26, FS. A $10 prepaid card is available by rebate.
60a / $80 AR ** PROMO CODE EMCKGKB22 $10 OFF, $20 REBATE ** ... http://tinyurl.com/4mcx87v [ CORSAIR, 80 PLUS ] ... same supply as above, just on Mardi Gras Sale
69a / $97 (AR) $122 ... http://tinyurl.com/4sc9dlt [ THERMALTAKE, 80 PLUS BRONZE] ???
70a / $125 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151100 [SEASONIC, 80 PLUS SILVER] ;D ;D
85a / $146 (AR) $159 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817189021 [XCLIO] ???
104a / $216 (AR) ... http://tinyurl.com/4q7sqvq [OCZ, 80 PLUS GOLD] ;D ;D
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Do not use Rosewill....please. Here is a list of makers to avoid
Achieve
Aerocool
Allied
Apex
Arrow,
Aspire > Dangerous! They don't even pretend to meet the ATX/AMD/Intel specs!
Austin
Codegen
Coolmax
Demon
Deer
Duro
Dynapower
Eagle
EagleTech
Foxconn
Foxlink
Hercules
InWin (except FSP models)
JustPC
Key Mouse
Kingwin
L&C
Logic
Linkworld
Macron Power
MGE
Mustang
Okia
Power-Man (except FSP models)
Powmax
Power-Up
Powerstar
QMax
Qtec
q-tec
Raidmax (except Topower/Tagan models, not sold with cases)
Real PC Power
Rhycon
Robanton
Rosewill
Skyhawk
Thermaltake (SIRTEC and non-Toughpower Units)
TMP-ANS
Tsunami
Turbo
Turbolink
Ultra (X-Connect only)
US-Can
Viomax
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"What do you mean 'Don't cross the streams'?"
"It would be bad."
"What do you mean 'bad'?"
"Imagine all life on earth ending in an instant as every molecule in your body explodes outward at the speed of light".
"Ok, that's 'bad'. Important safety tip."
Gonna need a judges ruling on that list above. I've used four of the brands listed above in computer systems over the years without a hitch. These systems ran (some stilll run) 24/day for YEARS without a power problem. I definitely appreciate any guidance on brands or models to avoid, but by what criteria are you eliminating what looks like about 40% of the ATX power supplies in American homes today?
... And what does 'bad' mean. Will these burn down my house? fry my smart strings and hub? or just die an untimely death in my garage when murphy finds an opportune time?
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These power supplies makers have been shown repeatedly in numerous PC systems to fail...and sometimes in a spectacular fashion. If you want to debate me..that is fine. But if you can get any reputable PC review site, especially one that focuses on PC supples, to recommend any in that list...I would be SHOCKED.
And even if vendors above finally managed to outsource to a reputable house, there is no guarantee that model will stay at the same builder. In short...Rosewill could make (they don't make squat, it is built by some third party) a good supply, but who knows how long that will last. Companies like Antec, Power PC&C, Corsair, BFG, OCZ, and a few others have been shown to have a 5 year+ good track record. Hell Power PC&C actually send you a report from their certified tester including full load tests. Open up a Rosewill and a good vendors supply...it is night and day difference in terms of quality.
Now, if you want to hook up a few hundred if not thousand dollars of equipment to the cheapest supply builder, that is your choice. But if a friend asks me for my advice, I could not recommend the above in good faith.
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a 750 watt power supply is rated for all the rails in the supply combined.
you want to look at the supply's Amp rating on the 12v rail. and it's a good idea to get a single rail power supply.
Thanks Chris, I have been looking at single rail only, my question is can you have a supply that provides too many amps or will the smart string hub only draw what is necessary? I don't want to damage anything by providing too much power <md.. LOL
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25a for $25 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817189021
40a for $40 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371030
50a for $60 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182200
54a for $70 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182191
69a for $97 (25 rebate) ... http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153106&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&AID=10440897&PID=404255&SID=182454
70a for $125 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151100
78a for $146 ($10 rebate) ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817189021
Thanks Taybrinn, Are there any specific ATX connectors we should be looking for? I have come across different versions ie. : v2.31/ EPS12V v2.92 , ATX12V v2.3/EPS12V v2.91, ATX12V 2.2 / EPS12V 2.91 and I'm just wondering which one the hub requires. Thanks for all the links as well. Ever since I started looking I get a banner in my AOL email account window for Newegg power supplies, talk about your direct marketing!!! LOL
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Do not use Rosewill....please. Here is a list of makers to avoid
Achieve
Aerocool
Allied
Apex
Arrow,
Aspire > Dangerous! They don't even pretend to meet the ATX/AMD/Intel specs!
Austin
Codegen
Coolmax
Demon
Deer
Duro
Dynapower
Eagle
EagleTech
Foxconn
Foxlink
Hercules
InWin (except FSP models)
JustPC
Key Mouse
Kingwin
L&C
Logic
Linkworld
Macron Power
MGE
Mustang
Okia
Power-Man (except FSP models)
Powmax
Power-Up
Powerstar
QMax
Qtec
q-tec
Raidmax (except Topower/Tagan models, not sold with cases)
Real PC Power
Rhycon
Robanton
Rosewill
Skyhawk
Thermaltake (SIRTEC and non-Toughpower Units)
TMP-ANS
Tsunami
Turbo
Turbolink
Ultra (X-Connect only)
US-Can
Viomax
Thanks Trep, I have been leaning toward a Corsair so I'm glad they are not on your list and that we can all benefit from you doing your homework. LOL
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should be similar to a PC, if the supply has more amps than is needed, the hub will draw what it needs.
I don't know the exact percentage of hand, but RJ reccomended getting a supply where your requirements are about 75-80% (i think) of the power supply's capabilities.
if you get it too close, you may find the supply getting overworked or getting "hot" which will cause stress and eventually failure (release of the magic smoke)
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I think all you need to be sure of is: (1) single rail (2) amp rating at 12V exceeds your requirements by say 20-30% and (3) its an ATX power supply. I don't think going over (the required amps) will hurt a thing, but will determine how many things you could (someday) put onto that SS Hub. Consider what your load might be when that SS Hub is fully loaded (all 16 ports used), if your only using say 6 of the 16 ports in the first year.
So if you determined that with all 16 ports in a SS Hub connected, that you only needed 30 amps ... then I would minimally take 30 * .2 (20%) and/or 30 *.3 and get at least a 36-39a rated supply ... and that would be 36-39a continuous and not just peak.
I've owned several rosewill supplies and never had a problem with them. But that said, its nice to know who the better quality PS makers are. Since we could be pushing the limits of these supplies, I'd buy the best quality you can afford.
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oh yeah, one more tidbit...
newegg is more common in their reporting of how many 12v rails a power supply has. I'm not saying everyone should buy there, but at least do your specs research there. Then you can buy the model from anywhere you normally use.
Most places dont really report the number of rails as it's not really that important while a supply is fitted in a computer. (one rail usually goes to the small 12v motherboard connector, one to the drives and/or the 20/24 pin motherboard connector, or even those are seperated, etc... each "rail" goes to a different part of the computer,
but with a smart string hub, you need to harness all that atx supplied amperage. if you get a multiple rails power supply, you'll get the rail from the 20/24pin connector, and the 4pin hard drive cables if you connect them ( i reccomend it), but if there's a rail going to something else, it wont get connected, and wont be part of the hub power.
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I guess I am a test pilot! I used rosewell power supply to power my MEGA TREE! <fp.
RJ
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I was not exactly sure just what the rails were. I know it was more then one source or supply of the 12 volts. I googled it and found this. It helped me to understand it more.
A short history of PC power supply voltage rails
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psurailhistory/rails.html
Ron
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I dont know much about the power supplies...what about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X1R5HM/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
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Directly from the manufacturer's spec sheet...
http://www.dynexproducts.com/cms/documents/DX-400WPS_09-1153_WEB_V3_ENG_Final%20lr.pdf (http://www.dynexproducts.com/cms/documents/DX-400WPS_09-1153_WEB_V3_ENG_Final%20lr.pdf)
DX-400WPS
12v rail 1 14A
12v rail 2 15A
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So is that worth it for $9.95??
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I don't think its the best match, unless you power requirements at like 12A or less for the entire hub.
Since each pixel strip is over 4 amps ... that $10 supply would only handle 3 strips.
I think it really depends on what you need and how much expansion you want to plan for.
The $40 Antec seems like a good value for the money.
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Man, thought I found a good by.... :(
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If it SEEMS to good to be true...
it PROBABLY is.... :(
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I updated the prices. A lot of the deals have disappeared. The $40 supply is out of stock.
Ironically the lower priced Rosewill is now $97, while the higher priced Rosewill (and higher powered) stayed the same.
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Ok, now I'm running scared on power supplies. I know what I need as far as stats are concerned, but I definitely don't want to blow up my SS strings. While I don't want to spend more than I have to, I absolutely don't want to fry my light show over $20 either.
Understanding that any electronic component can (and ultimately will) fail, and knowing that even the best company out there will occasionally produce a dud, can anyone provide a positive list of manufacturers with a good track record.
...yes, I could spend a couple of hours online and come up with this.. and will if I have to, but I figure the collective brain power on this site is enough to build a space shuttle if we wanted to... so why repeat the effort if someone already knows the answers.
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Updated again. There are a couple of deals right now on Corsair(s) ... discount codes listed. And found a monster 104a supply
thats 80 PLUS GOLD rated for $204.
Almost all the SEASONIC units are very highly rated, but more expensive.
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when in doubt, if you can afford a power supply recommended by RJ, go for it.
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Chris,
Just to be clear, these are not RJ' recommendations, just some I picked out at various power and price points which are
all single rail 12v ATX.
RJ did recommend a Rosewill supply and another higher powered model which isn't sold anymore at Newegg.
A couple of those Rosewill supplies are in the list, since that's what RJ used in 2010
on his megatree.
I think some of the Antec, Corsair choices are perhaps a notch up in Quality.
And then the Gold and Silver rated supplies are probably another notch up from those.
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instead of using PC power supplies what about something like this? it's from Ray Wu's, the same distributor as the nodes/strips etc.
http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/701799/209855560-341444006/12V-500W-switch-mode-power-supply-CE-apprived.html
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You could probably use it but you would need a kit 3 for each hub that you connect it to. He is not clear on the specs but it looks like 3A of that power is wasted on the 5V supply that you would not be using.
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For $48 (not counting shipping) and only 500W (and no amp rating) ... it doesn't seem to be a bargain, and its a no name brand.
RJ stressed you need to have a single rail and an amp rating at 12V (to exceed your needs by 20% or more).
The $30 on my list would be similar and includes shipping.
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i ordered kit #3 anyway, just in case i can't find a reasonably priced ATX power supply. The specs say 5V @ 0.3A, unless i'm missing something?
with the shipping, if you are bundling them up with your light order anyway, then the cost will come down. 12V @ 500W = 41 amps, it might be enough for my usage because i'm not planning on using a huge amount of nodes, i'll have to work it all out.
i'll keep looking for a suitable ATX supply while i'm waiting for the co-op parts to show up.
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oh, and thanks for the list too by the way taybrynn, that will help
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FWIW I have used Antec power supplies in every pc I have ever built and I have never had a failure.
Whenever I have to replace a power supply in one of our company pcs or a friends pc, I use Antec.
Of course, this is just my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong.
John
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http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817101050&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-
I am sure this one will get shot down but I ordered it anyway for $19.99 free shipping and no tax. It has a rating of 29 amp on a single rail. I am not going to have that many nodes. It is back to $30 now. It has 4 egg rating. It will do for a starter supply.
Ron
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12V @ 500W = 41 amps
Just remember most supplies are not very efficient, so its probably a lot lower.
Some of the better supplies are rated "80 PLUS" ... so that tells me that most are well below 80 percent efficient.
For example, the first two supplies on my list are 450w and 500w ... and they have amp ratings of 21a and 28a ... not
even close to 41 amps.
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+12V@29A from the website...
not bad you should be able to get 25A out of that for your smart strings needs continously.
it's a good buy.
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Thanks everyone for all your help. I ended up with this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006&nm_mc=Criteo&cm_mmc=BAC-Criteo-_-Power+Supplies-_-Corsair-_-17139006 60 amps on the single 12V rail and it is rated 80 plus. George
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Directly from the manufacturer's spec sheet...
http://www.dynexproducts.com/cms/documents/DX-400WPS_09-1153_WEB_V3_ENG_Final%20lr.pdf (http://www.dynexproducts.com/cms/documents/DX-400WPS_09-1153_WEB_V3_ENG_Final%20lr.pdf)
DX-400WPS
12v rail 1 14A
12v rail 2 15A
Ok I thought I cancelled my order and they verified it but I received 4 in the mail today. I don't see a charge on my card yet. Anyway the price is now 21 bucks when I paid $9.95. Cant I use both V1 and V2? Could I use it for 5v applications? I thought the hub had several power inputs?
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Unless the supply allows for it connecting them together could damage the supply.
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Cant I use both V1 and V2? Could I use it for 5v applications? I thought the hub had several power inputs?
there is a chance that a weaker rail could try to sink the power from a stronger rail. (similar to connecting two or more power supplies together) ther are most likely ways to acheive this, but i havent attempted it. and the price of getting the parts, and shipping invested in it, you might as well have the better supply.
Plus, if you dont tamper with your power supply, they most likely have warranties in case they do fail.
Earlier when I said "when in doubt, if you can afford a power supply recommended by RJ, go for it."
it was meant as a response to
Ok, now I'm running scared on power supplies. I know what I need as far as stats are concerned, but I definitely don't want to blow up my SS strings. While I don't want to spend more than I have to, I absolutely don't want to fry my light show over $20 either.
Understanding that any electronic component can (and ultimately will) fail, and knowing that even the best company out there will occasionally produce a dud, can anyone provide a positive list of manufacturers with a good track record.
...yes, I could spend a couple of hours online and come up with this.. and will if I have to, but I figure the collective brain power on this site is enough to build a space shuttle if we wanted to... so why repeat the effort if someone already knows the answers.
My understanding so far is, to calculate the AMPS you need for your strings... add on another 20% -ish then try to find a ATX power supply with a single 12v rail that can handle that.
if you have a high number of amps, then think about splitting them up over 2 or more hubs ( to distribute the power needed.) then you wont need as powerful of a supply.
for example, i ordered 4 SSC's, and 2 Hubs... if i split my ssc over the two hubs, i would only need (~4AMPS x 2 (SSC) = 8 + 20% equals about 9.6AMPS, or about 10 amps... so i could buy 2 cheap power supplies, than if i tried to put it all on one hub (then in this case, i'd need a 20A supply, not a big issue, but as power needs grow, splitting up into more than one hub makes sense.)
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The problem I have with buying a power supply is knowing whether to buy for 2011, or buy for 2012 as well. If you make the investment in a 70a + supply now... then you can fill the entire hub eventually, otherwise your buy enough power for now only and would be looking at the big supply later or another hub and another smaller supply. Gets you thinking about the future and whether you want one big hub or more smaller or half filled ones.
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You can really overthink this one if you let it happen. You really need to look at your layout and into the near future and decide how many pixles or nodes you are going to want to have and how you see the layout in the near future such as 1012. If you are planning on significant additions to the existing hub then I would get a larger supply but if your future plans include additions that would require an additional hub somwhere else then size the supply to what you need now and don't worry about it. RJ has plans for many new hubs including 4 and 8 port hubs and some IIRC, will be simple pixelnet hubs without DMX output which will make them quite inexpensive and give maximum flexability so I wouldn't worry all that much about the supply. You still have plenty of time to make that decision anyway since the hub and SSC kits still haven't even been ordered.
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Newegg weekend deal, Corsair 600w 12V single rail after mail in rebate $34.99........
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139019&nm_mc=EMC-EXPRESS030511&cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS030511-_-EMC-030511-Index-_-index-_-17139019 promo code EMCYTZT329
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Newegg weekend deal, Corsair 600w 12V single rail after mail in rebate $34.99........
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139019&nm_mc=EMC-EXPRESS030511&cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS030511-_-EMC-030511-Index-_-index-_-17139019 promo code EMCYTZT329
Is this good enough to power one hub with 16 x 128 smart string?
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you would need a PSU with about 75-80Amps for a fully loaded Hub
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It looks like I will be spending $100-$200+ for a PSU. :(
thanks for the response!
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you could run 8 strings on 2 hubs..
two cheaper supplies might be better than one expensive
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Thanks everyone for all your help. I ended up with this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006&nm_mc=Criteo&cm_mmc=BAC-Criteo-_-Power+Supplies-_-Corsair-_-17139006 60 amps on the single 12V rail and it is rated 80 plus. George
I decided to get the same one, since $90 (AR) for 60a seemed to be the perfect blend of plenty of power (for now) and future capacity.
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Mardi Gras Sale at Newegg ... some good deals on power supplies:
30a / $35 ... PROMO CODE EMCKGKB29 ... http://tinyurl.com/6y3tc9o [ ANTEC, 80 PLUS ] ... >.d9
50a / $50 ... PROMO CODE EMCKGKB28 ... http://tinyurl.com/smartstring50amp-ps [ ROSEWILL, 80 PLUS ] / $1 per AMP!! ;D
60a / $80 AR ** PROMO CODE EMCKGKB22 $10 OFF, $20 REBATE ** ... http://tinyurl.com/4mcx87v [ CORSAIR, 80 PLUS ] ... same supply as above, just on Mardi Gras Sale <;d
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As a non IT guy, I don't understand why there are not other 12vdc power supplies out there rather than these computer ones. It seems so inefficent to use these power supplies when your not using most of the outputs, just using the one 12v output.
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I agree, all those cords do seem to be a waste. Even in most PC(s) those cords just sit around in the case forever ... not hooked up to anything.
I think there are other supplies. But one of the reason RJ went with these ATX supplies is that they are mass manufactured and sold in quantity (its a large market, the PC market) and as such, prices are low for them, regardless of whether you use all the cables or not. If you select a modular supply, then you can just plug in the cords you will need. Most of these, however, are not modular as those typically cost a bit more. One you get into the other supplies, your talking a much smaller market ... and supply & demand on those ~ higher prices.
I mean, many other RGB users are buying inline 12v supplys with 2-3amp ratings and injecting and re-injecting and those are about $8-10 each ... but you have to buy a lot of them, so the SS Hub design (I think) scales well, but isn't the best for scattering all over the yard, unless you use lots of hubs and smaller power supplies ... and smaller hubs may be coming in the future. It might be nice for those smaller supplies to just accept an simple power injection supply, like the $10 variety?
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...
I mean, many other RGB users are buying inline 12v supplys with 2-3amp ratings and injecting and re-injecting and those are about $8-10 each ... but you have to buy a lot of them, so the SS Hub design (I think) scales well, ...
I think this is the key, though...a 12V / 3A supply is running $8-10 or about $3 per amp. A 70 amp PC supply is ~$70 or ~$1 per amp. I have looked around for other cheaper / surplus supplies and in the dollars per amp figure, PC supplies seem to reign supreme. Plus it should be a very closely controlled power supply, efficient with very little ripple.
Had even considered running my welder to get the high amp 12VDC, but I think the power factor would cost more over the season than just buying an efficient PC supply.
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Most welder supplies are brute force supplies and are not all that well regulated or filtered and not all that efficient either. Computer supplies do offer the most bang for the buck and for most are the best way to go.
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Will these 12V ATX power supplies need any modification, or will the hub send the whatever signal is the equivalent of a "computer power on" signal needed to fire them up?
-P
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the power suplly will not need modification
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I believe the P/S will be on all the time, provide its plugged in.
There is a limit of 4a (5a fused) per cat5 in the pixelnet standard.
So that should be enough for any of the SS options, and is pushing the
limit of carrying power over cat5. But RJ did tests and the cat5 barely
heated up at all.
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As a non IT guy, I don't understand why there are not other 12vdc power supplies out there rather than these computer ones. It seems so inefficent to use these power supplies when your not using most of the outputs, just using the one 12v output.
Minor Point. The PC power supplies also supply the 5v needed to run some of the circuitry on the hubs. If I remember correctly, in the coop there was an option for additional parts if using a 12v only power supply. The large ATX connector on a PC power supply is not just 12v.
Alan T
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Here, I found this. How to get rid of all those wires but also if you keeping looking there is how to combine them all together. I think I will try this soon.
http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply
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Banker, did you forget to attach something? ???
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oops, now i have to find it again
http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply
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if you do that with multiple rail power supplies, isn't it possible for one rail, to sink the stronger rail?
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That is a cool tip. With good regulation in the ATX power supplies it is unlikely the different rails would be far enough apart in voltage to matter much, right?
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That looks way too dangerous for me.
I'll probably just hot glue over the unused connections or just put em in a baggie or something.
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Where is your spirit of adventure?
"I wonder what happens if I touch here...." <md..
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With good regulation in the ATX power supplies it is unlikely the different rails would be far enough apart in voltage to matter much, right?
but what about PSU's that have totally different ratings for amperage on the different 12v rails...
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Without knowing the internal circuitry, connecting two or more 12v rails together is a bad idea. A dfference of only 0.1 volts across a short circuit can result in a lot of amps and a release of nasty smelling magic smoke.
Voltage = current * resistance
Solve for current and you get current = voltage / resistance.
On a good supply, the short circuit protection should kick in and turn thepower supply off.
RM
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Ah- very different rated rails would probably be an issue. Most PS I see have the 12V rails rated the same or close. For example Looking at an Enhance that claims two 12V rails, one is 15A and one is 16A which I'd bet is "close enough" but would need to be seriously tested in a safe way to see if something "bad" happens if you tie them together.
My rational is that people put 12V batteries in series ALL THE TIME (RV power, solar systems, electric fork lifts, goldf carts) and I can guarantee they are not all the same current and those do NOT blow up.
Kirk
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Since the hub does all the needed things to make the ps work why not leave alone so when if you have a problem the warrenty is in tack and you can get it replaced. Just tie wrap the cables up.
RJ
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My rational is that people put 12V batteries in series ALL THE TIME (RV power, solar systems, electric fork lifts, goldf carts) and I can guarantee they are not all the same current and those do NOT blow up.
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Actually hooking the 12v rails together is like hooking batteries in parallel - which you can usually get away with as long as one of them does not short out when it fails. Also, the internal resistance in a battery to current flowing backwards through it provides some additional protection. If you start mixing types and brands of batteries and/or old ones with new ones you are more likely to see the stronger batteries discharging themselves through the weaker ones...
RM
PS - hooking power supplies in series would be even worse. If both supplies are "grounded", you would be tying one of the power supply outputs directly to ground!!
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Batteries do not regulate their voltage so connecting them in parallel does not cause one of them to sink current and the other to boost output to maintain their set voltage. However, if you hook a 6V and a 12V battery in parallel you may not like the result.
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From what I understand that they are doing is putting all the different feeds together, these are not necessarly different rails. To get rid of all the wires and maximize the amps by using a combination of all the wires which results in one larger wire to carry more amps. I will be playing around with the 4 400watt power supplies I bought for 10 bucks each. I wouldn't do it with more expensive ones. They have two 12v out puts that I would need to be able to combine to make these little puppies worth it. We shall see.
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I will say this one more time and then the users can do as they like. It will be their problem to deal with if they do not listen.
Use a single rail 12v supply rated above your maximum power requirement. If you do different and have issues make sure you look in the mirror for your problems if you have them.
The lab supply being looked at would normal be used on a bench for a amp or two of supply. That is a little different than loading it to near full load power hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
RJ
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I will say this one more time and then the users can do as they like. It will be their problem to deal with if they do not listen.
Use a single rail 12v supply rated above your maximum power requirement. If you do different and have issues make sure you look in the mirror for your problems if you have them.
The lab supply being looked at would normal be used on a bench for a amp or two of supply. That is a little different than loading it to near full load power hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
RJ
As a typical hard headed dude, I think what I am hearing is, "TheBanker your an idiot and I am telling you not to do this, it is not good". I think I might be actually starting to get the message. Most times I just need to know the "why", which seems to be stated above on the amp issue and the load. " The lab supply being looked at would normal be used on a bench for a amp or two of supply. That is a little different than loading it to near full load power hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of stuff."
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Nope...RJ isn't calling you an idiot. What RJ is trying to do making sure that the most amount of people have the most amount of success with nominal amount of effort. That is what he has done so well. It isn't that he is being mean or stuborn...it is that from a support point of view he is one man. Therefore by having a very simple but strict set of rules most things will tend to work right and when they don't, he knows where to begin looking. If everyone did everything their way and he was expected to support it, his neighborhood liquor store would be emptied out.
Think of it this way. Imagine a family w/ 6 kids. Do you think the parents do every whim their kids have and prepare custom food for them for every meal? I think RJ should be very proud of what he has done and has done a pretty good job of handling this "family". I am for sure...thankful.
Now those of us with significant experience in electronics may "deviate" from norm. But that is because we understand the risks/requirements and will not burden RJ with our choices.
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Now those of us with significant experience in electronics may "deviate" from norm. But that is because we understand the risks/requirements and will not burden RJ with our choices.
And those of us without any experience in electronics have all the information we need to make blinky/flashy.
John
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Since the hub does all the needed things to make the ps work why not leave alone so when if you have a problem the warrenty is in tack and you can get it replaced. Just tie wrap the cables up.
RJ
Agreed, however I think the issue people are having is finding an affordable solution to do that. A single 12v railed high amp ATX supply is difficult to find without causing wallet issues. Multiple rail supplies are more common and more affordable and lower amp cheapo supplies are easiest to get yet. It seems people are hoping to be able to use multiple rail or multiple cheapo supplies. It sounds like that may be unadvised as it has not been tested and potentially could cause a bigger issue. But what if it does work, safely and reliably? That would give people a much more affordable solution! If you COULD take two similar supplies with 16A on 12V and get a reliable 25-30 amps combined, that would be fantastic. Will it work? I don't know. Is it advisable now- NO WAY, but we will not find out unless we try. I for one will be using a 100amp single 12v rail (I think) per your recommendations. I will be very curious to see if dual rail supplies work as a backup to that PS!
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The problem is people are trying to "fix" something even before they have it. While it is all fun and good to be excited about an idea, throwing it out without some serious effort behind it can cause significant mis-understanding, especially to those who are not well versed in those technologies get involved. The typical results are disapointment and hurt feelings.
Two points of note:
1. RJ has already cut the power supply cost in half by using a PC supply instead of an industrial 12V supply. By this alone it should be evident he has worked this issue (and probably still working it).
2. If you plan on fully using a HUB..you will have nearly $1700 of hardware. Trying to save $50 off the price of a supply shoudn't be your biggest worry at this point.
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I'm more interested in seeing how people plan to use these power supplies outside and what they are going to weatherproof them in
and maybe how to they exhaust, etc. I'm also wondering if they stay on 24x7 or if powering up/down is required or not.
To me, unless you buy a modular PS and just install the cords you want, your going to have a bunch of unused wires tied together.
Basically every homebuilt PC out there is sitting around with case full of unused power wires.
I can understand bankers desire to do this since he got a bunch of PS(s) for $10 and is trying to combine, but I wouldn't recommend this for most, unless you fully know what your
getting into.
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I think that sometimes people need to realize that some things are the way they are. Most PC power supplies are not designed to be connected in parallel or to have their rails connected that way so if you do it the result can be unpredictable at best. At best it will work just fine but at worst it can take out the supply, hub, controller(s), and nodes. The cost of using RGB nodes can add up fast and it really doesn't make much sense to risk hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of equipment to possibly save 20 to 50 bucks.
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This is relevant:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990 (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990)
It says most "multiple rail" supplies are actually single rail inside, and primarily on the lower end supplies. It also talks about how some high end supplies (like my TurboCool) combine two 12V supplies into a single rail. Maybe this is more doable than people assumed?? Still the BEST/SAFEST thing to do is to do what RJ recommends!!!
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Oh and I was calling myself an idiot, did not mean Rj was. Most things I say are in joking form which really is difficult to do in this manner....i could do a bunch of these.... ;D ;D <la..
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This is relevant:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990 (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990)
It says most "multiple rail" supplies are actually single rail inside, and primarily on the lower end supplies. It also talks about how some high end supplies (like my TurboCool) combine two 12V supplies into a single rail. Maybe this is more doable than people assumed?? Still the BEST/SAFEST thing to do is to do what RJ recommends!!!
I think this is the info we all have been chasing.
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I really don't think so. This article is based on PC usage and really isn't relevent to what we are using them for. While it may be true that many multi-rail supplies may in fact use the same 12V source and filtering, that is not the issue that we are concerned with. What he did not say was whether each rail used its own regulator circuit and I would bet that they do. If not, there would be no reason to call it a multi-rail suppy and the multiple regulators connected in parallel would be the very problem that we are trying to avoid. What it really comes down to is this; RJ and many others have said to use a single rail supply with an output capability exceeding what the nodes connected to it will require. If people insist on trying to save a few bucks at the risk of damaging hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of equipment then go for it but if it goes wrong, you got nobody to blame for it but yourself. Good luck.
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Absolutely true what you say there. However if it works, those people using a lower cost and easier to obtain 400-550W PS at $20-$40 are going to be LAUGHING at those of us who went the $200+ PS route because someone said so, then boy won't we look silly.
Of course if the reverse is true, and it blows up lights and hubs, won't WE look like the smart ones.
The difference is "common knowledge" vs "real knowledge". If someone could explain EXACTLY and scientifically why tieing rails is bad, then I will be a believer. If someone says "dont do it because I think it might be bad", or worse "because someone else thinks it might be bad" THAT makes me want to find out the reality. My belief is that in a computer with all common ground connections and interconnections and multiple power connections GALORE, that if someone took an HDD on one rail and connected it to a common connection device that took multiple power in and got power from the other rail (like attached) that it would spontaneously combust. I would think the PS manufactureres would have thought of that possibility and made sure it was ok (boy I HOPE so!!).
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BTW, That picture is an internal THREE SATA drive bay that takes in TWO HDD power conections so you KNOW they are a common power bus to the three HDDs.
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Ok this is the way it is,
I am telling the users that I and a number of people who do know are telling you that it is a bad idea. You could get a power supply do it and have no issues since some supply are listed as multirails and are single. Also some may regulate closely and some do have seperate regulation and no isolation between them.
The aguments that are being made for why it is ok make no sense and ignore the issues.
If you designed the supply so you knew the isolation method and regulation setup ect you would be qualified to make the call but since not one person on this forum meets these requirements it is a shot in the dark a pure random chance if it will work ok or not.
I am saying it is a bad idea.
So if you take a "xyz" model power supply mutil rail with two 12v 16 amps rails and draw 26 amps what happens? Will it load both rails equal? Will it overload the rail that regulates a little higher voltage and draw much less from the lower voltage rail?
To top this off the idea that the power supplys are cheaper because they are muti rails means people are not looking very hard. I just bought 150 watts of 12v for $150. Or $50 for 50 amps with free shipping. the link was posted here on the forum.
Buying multiple $30 power supplys to get to the power you need is not going to save you.
Also cutting the wires to hook them together I believe would void the warrenty would it not ... Yes, so now if your $40 power supply quits then you can not get it replaced so you are out $40. By making the Hub accept the plugs as is, I on the other hand will simply unplug my supply and have it replaced.
As said do as you want but this is over.
RJ
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I just saw this ad. Funny thing what it says. "Single, high-power +12V rail eliminates the problems associated with multiple +12V power distribution". <fp. It is 52 Amps for $69 after MIR.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=110232&SRCCODE=LINKSHARE&cm_mmc_o=-ddCjC1bELltzywCjC-d2CjCdwwp&AffiliateID=OfrhIMk.DmY-LYReELa4RP2xRpjmbrXHPg
Also a funny combo? "XFX P1-650X-CAH9 650W XXX Edition Modular Power Su and XFX Poker Game Set Bundle"
Ron
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What makes no sense is that it says single rail, but in the specs it says +12v, +12v2, +12v3.
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What makes no sense is that it says single rail, but in the specs it says +12v, +12v2, +12v3.
That is because you misread the chart. While it does have the V2 and V3 spaces, if you look at the current output below these spaces you wil see that they are empty indicating that these outputs don't exist.
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And it comes with a poker chip set.....for those that dont listen ti RJ and there stuff goes <md..[/flash]
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maybe they are trying to say if you buy that supply you are gambling??
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Single rail vs multiple rail may be more of an issue than even RJ has considered. From my research it lookes like there is a a SERIOUS limitation on the current the ATX connector can provide. On the 20 pin and 24 pin connectors there are TWO wires carrying 12V. If the HUB only uses the motherboard connector to get power, then that connector is limted to 16A (2x8a on 18GA wire) per the typical wire size to the ATX connector. If the hub uses the the additional 4 pin connector for the new CPUs then that adds an additional 16A capability BUT that will bridge the power rails in a typical multi-rail power supply and brings the questions we have been asking right back into the mix. Same problem for using the HDD power connectors to get more current into the hub as THAT will tie rails together also.
So RJ, I have not seen it said anywhere, but it looks like you must specify SINGLE RAIL ATX power supplies to avoid tieing rails via the hub (the discussion above that pissed you off so much), OR you are SERIOUSLY overloading the ATX connector with a partial to full hub and that is a serious danger!
I give up on the dual PS question, but what about a single "good" multiple rail PS that you specify?? And have you considered the wire limitation on the ATX connector? I would love to see the HUB manual (that is currently restricted access on the Wiki) to maybe help answer some of my question that could be a serious hazard (like catching the ATX 12V wires on fire) to all SS users.
THX
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Looking at the pixelnet hub picture in the wiki, it uses both the 24-pin ATX connector and up to three hard-drive connectors.
/mike
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Yes, that is what got me thinking. THAT potentially causes rail tieing issue right there if power is taken from both the ATX and the HDD power as those ARE different rails in a split rail system.
Also, different HDD leads (on different wires) can be on different rails also. So if that is OK somehow (avoids the differential regulation issue) , then why is another tieing situation NOT ok? I am not convinced this has been thought through all the way and either tieing IS ok, or there needs to be tighter restrictions on the ATX used to AVOID tieing and the "bad things"!! If tieing is bad, then split rail power supplies cannot be used, but if that is ok then tieing should be OK other ways as well. I'm hoping the later is correct but right now the former looks to be the rule and some people may have the wrong PS and are risking issues by unintentionally tieing the 12V rails via the HDD power cables.
RJ am I wrong and we need to warn people away from split rail supplies, or was I right and you are tieing via the HDD connectors but did not realize it?
<EDIT: I am wrong as pointed out below (it is in the WIKI now) but we do need to be sure everyone avoids split 12v rail ATX power supplies- I am thinking of taking pictures of labels of some of the many ATX power supplies to which I have access as a guide (this is goood, this is baaaad) if that is OK with everyone.>
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RJ has specified a single rail supply...in the wiki. It is at the bottom of page one on the Smart String Power Requirements file. This has been a point since DAY 1. The reason he put all those connectors there is for having enough power without damaging the wire. I have no idea why you are trying to make a mountain out of a pile of which is this dead horse.
EDIT: Here is the rating table when doing 12V work. Very similar style (insulation type) wire is used for PC's.
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm
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RJ designed this to work with either a computer power supply or a non computer power supply but not both at the same time. Obviously you should go with the recommendations of the board designer (RJ). I personally don't want to risk damaging any component in my display. If RJ thought using multi rail power supplies were okay he would have said so. Since he said the exact opposite I don't have to care what the reasoning is. His word is good enough for me.
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Looking at the pixelnet hub picture in the wiki, it uses both the 24-pin ATX connector and up to three hard-drive connectors.
/mike
Does this mean you can use all these connectors from one power supply? Or do you use different power supplies?
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RJ has specified a single rail supply...in the wiki. It is at the bottom of page one on the Smart String Power Requirements file. This has been a point since DAY 1. The reason he put all those connectors there is for having enough power without damaging the wire. I have no idea why you are trying to make a mountain out of a pile of which is this dead horse.
You are correct, looking now in the Wiki, I see that information. I wish someone had pointed that out and repeated it here earlier! The last time I looked in there, it was all dummy entries or restricted to SYSOP group (like the manuals are now). That is (mostly) my mistake that I missed it buried in the incomplete area on the wiki. I wonder how many others are getting split rail power supplies as most of the more "affordable" high power ones are split now due to ATX12V standard? I think that needs to be clearer. That is the pile of dead horse here...
EDIT: Here is the rating table when doing 12V work. Very similar style (insulation type) wire is used for PC's.
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm
That is a nice chart. I got my info here: http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990 (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990) but I wonder if they mixed up 120Vac with 12Vdc use?
Thanks for the info (finally).
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single rail power supply, then hook up the 24pin atx connector,
hook up a hdd 4 pin molex connector from a set of one string coming from the SAME power supply
repeat for the other strings of hdd connectors coming out of the SAME power supply
any extra hdd connectors on the hub, populate with any available spare 4pin molex hdd connector from SAME power supply.
this helps distribute the power across the conducters providing 12v power from a SINGLE rail power supply without issues.
if your display is running a high number of nodes or modules, considering breaking up to two or more hubs, set to use the same pixelnet universe...
Is there really any more questions after that?
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I'm good now!! SINGLE RAIL is key!!! AMEN!!!
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Good deal going at NEWEGG today on an Antec (80 Plus rated) 30amp single rail 12V ATX power supply for $25 with free shipping.
These won't last, I predict. There may not work for you if your putting a lot on your SS hub, but if your good for at least 6 items at 4a each and
thats keeping it under 80% of capacity.
http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx?cm_sp=ShellShocker-_-17-371-029-_-05122011
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Thanks for the information.
I just ordered 2. Just need 2 more power supplies at about 40a each.
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holy crap! 2 - 30's AND 2 - 40's?
you might as well tap into your nearest nuclear power plant!
j/k
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looks like that deal is over already. :(
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70A MODULAR PS for $120 after $15 rebate with free shipping ... 80 plus silver certified, modular (connect the cords you want) ...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139011
40A PS for $37 after $20 rebate with free shipping ... good reviews/brand
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139019
both deals dead now
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The new egg shell shocker link took me to a blue tooth router combo deal.
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the links dont last long
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Yeah, those shell shockers last less than a day.
I already got my 30a antec supply which was a $27 shell shocker (no rebate!)
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Any thoughts on this power supply for the smart strings?
http://www.mpja.com/email/06-01-11.asp?r=324031&s=5
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Any thoughts on this power supply for the smart strings?
http://www.mpja.com/email/06-01-11.asp?r=324031&s=5
It's a bit low on output power. If you are powering a small number of nods then it should work otherwise you need to go bigger.
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plus, you're paying for 2 power supplies, when only one can be powered at a time.
it has 14VA which gives you about 11VA worth of smart string nodes power.
a full 128node string is almost 4A
you should be able to power about 300 nodes (less if using squares, or rectangles)
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Will this Corsair work for a SS hub with all 16 ports connected to 100 node strings. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Corsair+-+Enthusiast+Series+850-Watt+ATX/EPS+CPU+Power+Supply/2193302.p?id=1218313321908&skuId=2193302&st=power%20supply&cp=1&lp=3 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Corsair+-+Enthusiast+Series+850-Watt+ATX/EPS+CPU+Power+Supply/2193302.p?id=1218313321908&skuId=2193302&st=power%20supply&cp=1&lp=3). Kind of hoping if RJ could answer if he has time. but anybody else is also welcomed.
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That is a single rail 850W supply putting out 70A at 12V and will work just fine for what you want it to do.