DiyLightAnimation
Hardware => Lynx Smart String => Topic started by: sittinguphigh on November 29, 2013,
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Here is a question/answer from Ray about the new LED.
Hello Ray
DLA has high discussions online about a problem that you changed over you had with the LED.
Going form 29ma LED to 56-60ma LED. This makes it impossible for DLA users to use 128 nodes on one line.
Can you verify if this is true?
I know the technicolor strings have this bright LED in them. DLA tested the light string. We can't use them with 128 nodes.
They use .67 watts per node.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/100nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel/922175506.html
Response
Ray wu:
00:11 Nov 29,2013
you are right,but the led is only 3.2V/60ma(arount 0.2w),the LDO on the pcb takes about 0.5w power.
you just need to connect it to a bigger power supply , i supposed.
thanks and best regards
Ray
Me:
07:44 Nov 28,2013
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This confirms what we were saying. The current generation of nodes have similar specs to the Technicolor nodes and as Steve said according to his testing "A 100-count string will use 5.5 amps... which exceeds the 4 amp rating of the SSC and cat5 wire used for power delivery. Power Injection at the end of the 100-count string will be necessary."
Or just use shorter strands and more ssc's or a Zeus if you want to use the cat 5 to deliver the power without injection and of course the total number of nodes a power supply can power will be fewer than the older style nodes.
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This really makes it a mess. More problems.
You will need two Zeus to do a mega tree.
Or more wires. Means more potential problems.
The power consumption will double.
So it sounds like difference is the LED. Unless you can find a chip takes less power. Or a DLO want ever that is.
What does Ray mean bigger power supple?
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You can always get around that with power injection. I really hope that in the future of the devices that RJ moves away from cat5 and RJ45 connections between the hubs and the nodes and goes with the terminal blocks that the Zeus uses. 4 conductor twisted pair speaker wire should povide enough signal protection and can be sized well above anything that cat5 can handle and carry much more current and removing the RJ45's from the hub outputs will prevent people from plugging in the wrong devices into the hub outputs and possibly damaging or destroying them.
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You may have no choice. Unless the power source goes around all the hubs and controllers. The consumption doubles the price of doing this. Not good.
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I like some sort of connector myself instead of terminal blocks exclusively. Too easy to slide the wrong color wire or a stray bit of strands to touch their neighbor. The waterproof pigtails are a little short, perhaps a little longer set of those would work, or a connection block that can be hard mounted to a case. don't know what they have in Roadie land out there for stage lighting since they have to break it down and re-assemble it several times a week I image there are some robust, idiot proof, connection schemes out there.
I know in general the board here tries to keep the costs out, but my time is worth more than an extra few dollars here and there to simplify my hobby in some other areas.
Alan who's going to need some commercial quality strings next year and some scheme to power it all..
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The advantage to terminal blocks is that you can then attach any connector to them that you want if you feel the need for connectors at all on the hub. I like the flexability of making and changing the length of my cables at will and with the ever increasing current draw of these nodes, it is getting beyond the ability of CAT5 to be able to properly deal with it.
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On one hand I feel vindicated that my numbers were confirmed, and also got the word out so that folks were not completely surprised... :-\
Still... what a mess. There will be blown fuses and other problems.
Not blaming DLA for this, but reasons for hobbling the SSCs with 128 nodes have shifted... it should be fewer allowed nodes for these new strings. If we introduce power injection (with fuses!), then maybe the limits should be lifted altogether so that I could run 500+ nodes from a SSC.
Zach has talked about a Technicolor v2 strings using 5050s... this will change the power profile yet again.
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Moral of the story - IMHO - use the approved ss nodes in the wiki -- spending more and getting hAlf the nodes per controller and all the issues -- no thanks ...
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The good thing is we found out early about the problem because of the Technicolor strings. Now we aren't blind sided. We can work on it. Let every one know before buying them. All new RGB led strings TW1804 or WS2811 will have this LED in them.
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Moral of the story - IMHO - use the approved ss nodes in the wiki -- spending more and getting hAlf the nodes per controller and all the issues -- no thanks ...
The problem is the nodes linked to in the WIKI also pull more MA than they used to. You can no longer drive 128 nodes via the cat5 cable without power injection. I would not be surprised if RJ announced a simple solution to power injection in the future. He is always 3 steps ahead.
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I don't know of a "simple" solution to adding power injection. The existing simple solution was to use 12V and limit the node count to what the cable being used can handle to eliminate the need for power injection and all of the extra cabling it requires. The only "simple" solution that I can come up with is up the current capacity of the SSC and DSC an amp or two and ditch the cat5 cable. I will be doing some tests myself using 4 conductor twisted pair speaker wire to see how far it can go between the hub and the controller before it has signal issues. If I can get 100 feet out of it, that far is more than anything that I would need and the current carrying capability far exceeds anything that cat5 can deliver.
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Why is this new led which is half as efficient as the old the new standard? Makes no sense.
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Three possible reasons, cost, availability, and brightness. I am not sure if the new LED' are less efficient but if so, I bet that they cost less or the cost of the ones he was using has gone up. It could also be that the ones he was using are no longer available in the quantity he is needing them at the current price. They could also be brighter and of course, "brighter is always better ". Even at the same effeciency, brighter LED's use more current.
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IMHO the current nodes were already plenty bright... and now were looking at double the node cost and twice the hardware to run them ... Sigh
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Just received a email from Ray. He is sorry for the problems. He is now changing the specs on all LED effected on his site. I asked Ray to send me any information toward the LED update.
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My order is on its way from Ray. My plan was to mix last years nodes with this order on my taller tree. Now that I see I'm most likely going to get the new LED in this batch has any one put these new LED next to the old ones? Are they going look different and stand out.
Thanks
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I sent Ray a email asking that question. I think they are brighter.
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if usng xlights you can set a blanket brightness values of 60-70% thus reducing the current being drawn. the old lights were already too bright so i dial down the brightness. I watch the current draw and as expected the current drops as a dim the lights.
effects like butterfly set each nodes brightness to 255. if the brightness is set to 50% each nodes brightness will be set to 128.
this would allow you to get around blown fuses for this season
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if usng xlights you can set a blanket brightness values of 60-70% thus reducing the current being drawn. the old lights were already too bright so i dial down the brightness. I watch the current draw and as expected the current drops as a dim the lights.
effects like butterfly set each nodes brightness to 255. if the brightness is set to 50% each nodes brightness will be set to 128.
this would allow you to get around blown fuses for this season
That's great, sean! where is that set?
Also, do you think you might ever implement a brightness level at a string level?
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if usng xlights you can set a blanket brightness values of 60-70% thus reducing the current being drawn. the old lights were already too bright so i dial down the brightness. I watch the current draw and as expected the current drops as a dim the lights.
effects like butterfly set each nodes brightness to 255. if the brightness is set to 50% each nodes brightness will be set to 128.
this would allow you to get around blown fuses for this season
That's great, sean! where is that set?
Also, do you think you might ever implement a brightness level at a string level?
Brightness for current effect is bottom left quadrant
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I agree. If fact I post that very thing. But got no answer.
Thanks for bringing that up. Can the brightness be brought down for every show. Like a switch? Well then by theory you could bring them down enough to go over the 128 nodes. That will help me.
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You really have to look at what you need when it comes to brightness. The TM1804s only run the LEDs at about 8ma per color where the WS2811s run at 18.5ma per color however the WS2811 are brightner. If you don't need the brightness and the current smart strings work for you then use them.
Problem is that some are saying the Technicolor use mor epower because of the regulator but that's totally misleading, they use more power because they are brighter since the WS2811 runs the LED closer to the manufactures specification.
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Steve Gase
Can you double check what smeighan is saying?
I don't see the switch in xlights.
My system is still not working.
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I agree. If fact I post that very thing. But got no answer.
Thanks for bring that up. Can the brightness be brought down for every show. Like a switch? Well then by theory you could bring them down enough to go over the 128 nodes. That will help me.
You still can't go over the 128 node limit because 128 nodes is the max the smart string utility can configure.
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Yet ;D
I know you guys to well <res.
How far can we go.
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Steve Gase
Can you double check what smeighan is saying?
I don't see the switch in xlights.
My system is still not working.
I do see, and now have used, the slider for the brightness and contrast. It is within the Nutcracker tab's Effect section:
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3237/4u30.png)
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Have you tried using a 100 technicolor light strings with taking down the current to see if you can use 100 nodes or more?
Now can you only use the function with Nutcracker only?
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Have you tried using a 100 technicolor light strings with taking down the current to see if you can use 100 nodes or more?
Now can you only use the function with Nutcracker only?
LSP also has some intensity settings, not sure if it's quite as easy as nut cracker, but I have seen right click on a channel and lower the intensity.
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if you inject power from another source, you might run into issues like were discussed when people wanted to use multiple rail power supplies...
why not...
run another cat 5 cable from another port on the same hub out to the other end of the string, then use those 3 pin connectors to attach the power to the opposite end of you lights (with data NOT connected)
so you would have a 3 pin male connector on both sides of the string (the far end wont have data connected)
one cat5 cable running to your ssc with data
one cat5 cable running to the far end with + and - with no data connected
or...
use a 2 pin connector on the far end to avoid confusion
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Running power from a separate source is no big deal as long as you cut the +12V to separate the supplies. The common is common and they can be left together but the +12V should be cut where you want the hub power to stop and the injected power to take over. Even with your idea, the +12V should be cut to prevent overloading of one of the connections fails which would dump the entire load on the other one.
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Running power from a separate source is no big deal as long as you cut the +12V to separate the supplies. The common is common and they can be left together but the +12V should be cut where you want the hub power to stop and the injected power to take over. Even with your idea, the +12V should be cut to prevent overloading of one of the connections fails which would dump the entire load on the other one.
and don't forget to fuse any injection to add.
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So given these new LEDs what is the maximum number of nodes you can run on without adding additional power injection?
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My guess would be 70 to play it safe (assuming Ray's specs are correct at 60ma per node). However Steve was measuring 55ma per node on a similar led so that would be closer to 75 node limit. If you didn't run these at full intensity you could add a few more. Now I am not an expert so if someone with more knowledge sees a problem with my calculation feel free to point out my mistake :)
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It may be possible to get 128 nodes. If some one who has a 100 nodes or more of technicolor strings could do a test with the intensity at a lower rate we would know if that will work.
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Sure it will work but all you will need is a glitch that sends them all to full power and then it no no longer will be working. Power injection is the easiest answer to this right now and it is not all that difficult to do, especially in a snall area.
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i'm close to putting up my technicolor strings. they are 100ct TM1804. I'm going to attempt no power injection and see how far that takes me.
i suppose I should avoid the full-on-white effects. :)
according to the other thread regarding TM1804, maybe there isn't a problem -- or maybe not with the older-design IP68 strings.
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That would be great Steve if you can bring down the intensity and see if 100 nodes will work fine?
Does any one know what Ray means when he says LDO?
Is it some kind of voltage regulator?
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I am using lowered intensity to about 50% with my show. My measurement for
watts/amps is not as good as Steve's but should be in the ballpark. I used a
kill-a-watt device. Been on for 1.5 nights now with no problems. I also used the
same technique to burn-in my 100 node count Technicolor's. Because these lights
as so bright 50% still looks great.
Bill
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So you have no dimming down on all 100 nodes?
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when I do all white at 50% I do see some dimming. I also measured the voltage at the end of the string.
For 100% I saw 50% drop in voltage. At 50% it is 25%. With color at 50% I get 10% drop. So needless
to say I also avoid all white in my display.
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So I wonder how low you have to go to get all 100 nodes to evenly display white?
And the white bright enough?
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That would be great Steve if you can bring down the intensity and see if 100 nodes will work fine?
Does any one know what Ray means when he says LDO?
Is it some kind of voltage regulator?
I took a node apart and there is a 2811 on it, a 7805 (which is a voltage regulator), a couple of caps and a LED. So my guess is he is talking about the voltage regulator.
Joe
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Per Wikipedia,
A low-dropout or LDO regulator is a DC linear voltage regulator which can operate with a very small input–output differential voltage.
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Thank you. It looks like the chip is only capable of handling 3/4 watt and they are at half. Now comes the question of I am seeing of higher current LEDs. The other question I wonder about it this thing is enclosed in a thick layer of plastic. So is it overheating?
Joe