Author Topic: Why don't we...  (Read 3066 times)

Offline RJ

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Why don't we...
« on: January 28, 2011, »
You know with all the talk about gas prices going to $4 a gallon and more, and everyone saying we need cleaner energy. I have to wonder this..


Why don't we :

     Switch to using Hydrogen? ...   Because it takes a lot of energy to make hydrogen and we burn oil to make the energy so it cost more and pollutes more.

  So Why don't we:

      Build some Nuke power plants to make the power to make the Hydrogen there by making it a cleaner and cheap source of power? ...   Because everyone is worried about another three mile island.


  Since the reason we had three mile island close to people is because of the losses of energy sending the power a long way so we put the power plant close to where the power is needed and since we would be using the power this time to make hydrogen which we can ship in tankers....

   Why don't we :
           Put the  Nuke plants away from everyone on islands...  because if it leaked radiation it would posion the island..

    So why don't we build them on Bikini Atoll and ship the Hydrogen to the mainland?
          Because that would make sense!

Just something to think about?

RJ
  
                      
  

              
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Offline onesmoothhead

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, »
Why don't we buy Bikini island and start our own power plant.

Why don't we DIY our own ship yard.



 Um, does anyone know where I can store a ship for a while?  I do live in the desert.  

Kevin in New Mexico
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, by onesmoothhead »

Offline WWNF911

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, »
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You know with all the talk about gas prices going to $4 a gallon and more,

Figures,... the figure I heard was $5.00 and anywhere up to $10.00 a gallon.
Then again I always have to ask what are the achors smokin when they give the national average.


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Why don't we :

     Switch to using Hydrogen? ...  

I can answer that question in one word.  Anyone know it?

 <pop..

Leon
Leon

Offline sirloinofbeef001

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, »
The French are about 80% nuclear. I can see the stacks exhaust of three mile island from where I live and it doesn't bother me. If we were to go all nuclear, the dependency of good ol fossil fuel would eased and the middle east wouldn't have such a big noose around our necks..
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Offline rogerwh

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, »
RJ - I'm still waiting on the wireless lynx express with on board self programmer and conductor with personal nuclear generator for power to eliminate all of the cords in the yard.  Can you give us an update?? >.d9

Offline tng5737

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, »
Being DIY'rs, we could construct stills in our back yards and what we don't drink, we throw in the car as an alternative fuel.  Of course, there might not be a lot left over but that's ok, you're not supposed to drink AND drive!   ;D

Offline ptone

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, »
Well this side topic (not off topic I guess since its on the porch AND started by RJ) is one of particular interest to me.

First, it is good to recognize, as RJ did that Hydrogen is NOT a source of energy, only a carrier of energy - so many people get this point wrong out of the gate.

Our future energy landscape is an incredibly complex problem, suffering from lack of clear data and many conflicting "experts".  It is also, IMHO, the biggest problem facing our world over the next 50 years or so.

A couple challenges around nuclear:

If we were to shift a substantial amount of our energy consumption to uranium fission based nuclear, high grade uranium would quickly be in short supply, it would not scale easily.  The french project of plutonium breeder reactors is so heavily subsidized, it is hard to know what its true costs are.  The storage of waste is an unsolved problem with our CURRENT waste output, let alone were we to increase reactor waste many times over.

Bottom line, there are no silver bullets when it comes to future energy.  Energy is a quantity based on physics, not imagination.  Technology can invent new ways of using energy, or harvesting energy, but you can't invent new energy.  Of the many complex considerations of future energy options, rate of delivery must be considered.  It doesn't matter if alternative X represents a huge quantity of energy, if it can only be extracted and delivered at a trickle (compare tar sand oil extraction to West Texas or Saudi crude)

For those who want to learn more from a intelligent group who thinks about this a lot, I recommend checking out:

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Offline sirloinofbeef001

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, »
I think the USA has about 100 years of reserves here and we can't get to it, but if we could then that gives us the time to find the alternatives we need.drill baby drill.that's just my opinion..
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Offline wwwgator

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, »
IN response to Ptone, nuclear was the way to go till the morons in D.C. got involved. I used to work in the nuclear industry, and the plant I worked on was one of the first to design and implement above ground casks for storing waste. What a lot of people forget is that way back in the 70's the DOD was to reclaim the spent fuel (4% enriched) from the commercial power producers. Around 1988, The DOD handed the spent fuel program over to the DOE. They started building Yucca Mountain in NV. They have since spent over $35B developing the mountain paid for by our electric bills. In 1995, The US supreme court ordered Yucca Mounatin to start accepting waste per the agreement with the DOD. They, until last year have been fighting it tooth and nail. Once again, our government piddling around with a problem they said they could solve....and suprise suprise.....failed.

As for safety, TMI incident was a missreading of a pressure guage. The operators saw pressure on the cooling water loop , and wrongly assumed that there was water in the lines. It was steam pressure they actually were looking at and since, they added the correct monitoring gear.

What amazes me is that commercial plants are restricted to 4% enriched fuel, neccessitating a 90 refuel cycle.
The Military, however, used 95% enriched fuel, allowing a 15 year refuel cycle.

The Yucca mountain debate circles upon the "life cycle" od the spent fuel. I have heard everything for 50,000 years to 100M years. What is factually left out of the debate is called the half life. This is the span required for the material to return to it's "mined" state, or to the same levels as it was when it was originally pulled from the ground. It is a naturally occurring element. In the spent fuel debate, it would take an estimated 10,000 years if we just buried it raw, which was never the plan in the first place, to return to it's natural state. We put it conatainer casks, monitor them, maintain them......pretty much indefinately.

thats enough rambling for tonight......G' night all.
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Offline rm357

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, »
wwwgator's definition of half life is incorrect. The half life is the time that it takes for half of a given radioactive material to decay. To add to the problem, some of the by-products of the process are more radioactive than the original.
Robert
Warner Robins, Georgia, USA

Offline caretaker

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, »
The biggest problem with any current or future energy supply is return on investment (ROE).  If it was profitable to build a nuclear plant utility companies would be building them like crazy. Same goes for wind farms or solar farms, there is not enough ROE for companies to commit to the expenditures needed to build them.  The only reason most of the wind farms have been built in this country is because they are subsidized by the government making it feasible to do so. There is one company that is building geothermal generating stations because they found a source of WW2 era steam turbines and are using them with modern equipment to create generating stations that are profitable. Until we as a country decide we are not gong to let radical environmental groups create our policy on energy in this country and get rid of most of the ridiculous regulation the ties the frre market from working we will be stuck in the place we are at.     
Jeff Squires
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Offline ptone

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, »
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The biggest problem with any current or future energy supply is return on investment (ROE). 

I would say what matters more is a lesser known, but similar concept, EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested).

Even if oil were $3000 a barrel, if the process of extracting 1 barrel of oil consumed 1 barrel of oil of energy, then it doesn't matter what you can charge for it, since your costs will never be covered and there will never be profit (but see note below).  You can also think of this as net energy.

Early Texas and Saudi  oil had a EROEI of close to 100:1, but many unconventional fossil fuels and some alternatives barely have over a 1:1. EROEI has generally been declining since the early boom days of easy shallow oil.

You can also end up with negative EROEI if using different types of input and output energies if it results in profit.  For example making liquid fuels from coal may be less than 1:1, but because liquid fuels have more value, this could still generate a positive ROI.

Just another example of how this is all an incredibly complex problem, with no obvious or simple solutions.

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Offline dmoore

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, »
Chris Martenson - The Crash Course

ptone:
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Peak Oil:
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What you should really be worried about:
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, by dmoore »

Offline ptone

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, »
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Chris Martenson - The Crash Course

Chris is a smart guy - who I think gets most of it right.  The Crash course is well worth watching for those who haven't seen it.  It is presented in a very level headed way, free from most agenda.  It seems extreme at first, but give it a watch all the way through.  The three "E"s are intertwined in a way I don't think anyone fully understands.

I avoid blindly buying into any one school or camp whole hog, but I do feel very strongly that energy will become our (civilizations) biggest issue, and the solutions will not be simple or obvious (exact timing is hard to impossible to predict, but it is what everyone wants from these discussions).

-P
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Offline sirloinofbeef001

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Re: Why don't we...
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, »
This is all about supply and demand, basic capitalist ideaology. We have lots of oil here and now and that's not guesses or speculation. Nuclear is the future and oil is the here and now.. We, (the USA) can sit on there hands and do nothing, or let us extract the fossil fuel we have now.. Of course we need alteratives but that again is the future. $100 a barrel is rape no matter how we put it and OPEC gets a great return from the sweat from hard working Americans and its time to invest in us, the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.
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