ebay nightmare

[taybrynn]

I recently sold my last 3 LOR PC16 controllers on ebay.  I took pictures of all of them.  One of them had an unreliable cat5 port on it, which I covered up with red electrical tape.  The controller works fine, but does need to be used at the end of a signal chain, because it lacks a reliable output cat5.  I know this to be a very common problem on LOR controllers and for me, I've probably had 4-5 develop this problem.  I left the tape on to show that port was not functional.  I did however, forget to mention that in the item description.  Again, if I had intented to be dishonest in any way, I could have removed the red tape.

I know that with a simple reflow of the solder this is easily fixed, but it was not my intent to sell the unit without full disclosure.  That is why I left the red tape on the controller.  Ive had many of my LOR controllers develop this over the years and its never been anything but a minor hassle to me, as I just hook those up last.

Long story short, the buying paid me using paypal ... then filed a case against me saying the item was not as described.  2 controllers are just fine and the 1 controller (which works fine) has a piece of red tape over one of the cat5 input jacks.  Keep in mind I photographed all the controllers ... and the one in question, I photographed the board and it shows the covered jack clearly covered with red tape.  I guess thats misleading because I didn't say it in the description also? 

Anyways, I actually expected to get a question about the tape, but didn't.

So now that the buyer has filed a case against me ... ebay has taken back my paypal funds and put them into suspension.  I have send the buyer 3-4 messages trying to work it out ... including my phone number ... but no reply till today.

Today, the buyer finally replied to the case messages I left him trying to work it out (including giving me phone number) ... he said: "how about you send me your entire show of 40 sequences and then I'll sell this unit to my neighbor?"  He also claimed he could not use the unit with the tape, but made no mention of WHY he could not use it.  ( I had told him to just put it last and it would work fine)

Anyways, this is a nightmare because I really don't trust this person and apparently he thinks I was a scum bag also.  I admit I wish I had put something about the tape in the description, but just forgot to.  I have offered to refund him 1/3 and he could just send that one back to me.  I feel like I'm being extorted for my entire show or else.

Ebay only offers me the option of a totally refunding him and then hoping this person returns the items to me.

At this point I'm just kind of disgusted and feeling like he's trying to extort me for my entire show and unless I give him all the sequences for free, he won't drop the ebay case.

I'm also thinking that ebay should read this and see that my buyer isn't being ethical here.  I find it strange that he'd sell the unit to his neighbor, but its not good enough for himself?

Sorry, but I had to vent.  It's very sad that people in this hobby would be so unwilling to work with me and in fact would escalate to the ebay nuclear option right away.  I have a 100% perfect ebay reputation and have been a member since 2002. 

Any advice or comments appreciated.  I really am regretting this situation.

Scott

[tbone321]

I believe that you really need to get a hold of somebody in eBay.  In many cases, the automated systems always take the worst possible and threatening approach.  How did you communicate with this person?  If it was by email or some form of text messaging, I would send that to Ebay as well asking them to explain how sending your shows somehow fixes the unit or how is he able to sell the unit to his neighbor if it beyond his ability to either use it or send it back to you for a refund of that unit.  I hope that you included the shipping costs both ways in that refund and if not, you should.  If I were buying that unit, I would NOT assume that the red tape was indicating a failed port, especially it it was not listed in the item description.  I would assume that it was there to either stop you from using it for some reason or that you were just sealing it off from the weather and that's if I noticed it at all in the pic.  If they are so easy to fix, why didn't you just fix it before selling it?  While the guy is acting like a butthead, he does have a valid reason for complaining since the product was currently defective and you didn't say so.  If he is being unreasonable and it appears that he is, you need to get a hold of an actual representitive at EBay to resolve it.  After reading this, there is no way in hell that I would ever sell anything there knowing that they are that quick to screw the seller without getting all of the facts.

[MrChristmas2000]

I think the mistake was not completely making the description idiot proof. The lack of detail about the red tape can easily give someone an excuse to try and leverage something else out of you.

What good would all your sequences be to him since I would assume that you would not 'give' the audio file with them. If he is a LOR user just convert them to Vixen and make it as difficult for him as possible. Just get an e-mail stating that if you give them to him he will consider himself whole and will retract the complaint with e-bay.

As taybrynn says I too would try to contact a live person at e-bay first. Now that may be a challenge, If all fails contact their investor relations department and they are always wanting to avoid problems.

Bests of luck with that mess.

[GrumpkaXmas]

Had a similar experience with pro music equipment a few years back.  Did everything I could to describe the unit.   A complete idiot purchased the unit, couldn't get it to do a certain procedure, and said it was broke.  OK, I take it back, get's damaged in the return shipping to me, and to add insult to injury, it works just perfect!  Now I have a busted unit and can't even relist.  Not a fan of ebay for selling.  LOVE IT for purchasing though.

 More or less, the buyer can make up whatever he wants, and you have to deal with it.   I know, many will swear how great ebay is for selling, but you have to be careful.   My rule is, new in box, or like new in box, or I don't sell it on ebay.  Only real way around is take a beating on price and do the old 'AS-IS PARTS ONLY' even though something works perfect.  Even at that, the buyers can still burn you.   It's a gamble, but many do wonderful selling on ebay.  Going into it, just realize you might have to take a return for a perfect item.  You might THINK you are selling as-is, used equipment, but in reality, Ebay and Paypal more or less hold all sellers to the standards of a retail store.  In many cases, even a higher standard than a retail store.

Just my opinion of course. 

[jnealand]

Next time sell them on a Christmas forum.  I've never had a problem selling stuff via Christmas Forums.  LOR stuff sells well on Planet Christmas.

[dudehenry3]

Road trip lol

[CaptainMurdoch]

Just make sure all communication is via ebay channels. I had a similar situation 6-9 months ago and my description was accurate and the buyer admitted, after receiving he realized it wasn't what he wanted.  At first he told eBay it was broken.  eBay ruled in my favor after reading the correspondence between us.  He even tried to get me to refund outside eBay and go and offer it to the second highest bidder.  It was a quick ruling.

In your case if he admits two are good or says he will re-sell the 'bad' one then you might be able to get eBay in your favor for either getting your hardware back or at least the bad one with you only having to give a partial refund.

I do agree with others though in that on eBay, it is 'seller beware' because the seller is guilty until proven innocent.  It is a shame that it has come to that but it is mainly due to lots of cases where the seller was at fault.   They have ruined it for the rest of us.

[JerryPlak]

Scott,
in your comment I would forward the communication From this person Today, the buyer finally replied to the case messages I left him trying to work it out (including giving me phone number) ... he said: "how about you send me your entire show of 40 sequences and then I'll sell this unit to my neighbor?"  He also claimed he could not use the unit with the tape, but made no mention of WHY he could not use it."

As part of your original sale I don't think your show sequence was part of the sale??  Maybe this will show eBay and PayPal what this person is up to!!

And furthermore don't have any more communications with this person without going through the eBay system match for your protection also..

Try not using any legal  threats against eBay or PayPal, but showed them the reply you got from this person especially the person comment is planning to sell the unit to a neighbor and expecting full refund from PayPal, I would question PayPal how ethical is this in any kind of sales.

[taybrynn]

Thanks all.   I totally agree that I should have listed something specific in the description regarding this bad port.   Yes, I should have fixed it, but was apparently too lazy and that's my own fault.   I had fixed others and it's a pain.   Honestly I have so many controllers that are fed via a wireless LE, then going to a lor unit running dmx .... Basically terminating all over the place. That ending it somewhere wasn't ever an issue for me (so I didn't need the second port to work).  All messages have been on the official ebay case resolution website so it's all on official ebay.    No private emails or text whatsoever.   The buyer only messaged me once and it was in this ebay case resolution lot as well.  I have offered to take the bad one back and I'd even pay the shopping .... But I'm not sure the buyer want to do as much as see how much he can get from me first.    Even if I gave him all my sequences , I'm not sure he can be trusted to do anything at this point.   So in a few days .... It will escalate to,ebay resolution and hopefully i have a chance.   In that's they seem to always side with buyers even when it's nothing more than buyers remorse.   To add insult to injury my streak of misfortune continues ... My truck got rear ended last Friday , and today my daughter sat on my ipad and busted up the glass .    Sigh

[taybrynn]

Just got this message from the buyer ...     "Whoa,whoa! I am new to these LOR units. I don't know what it takes to program shows. I cannot fix this unit. I assumed that since you already had these songs programmed, it would be no big deal. A click of the mouse. I am not trying to offend anyone!!! I cannot use it where I need it by putting at the end. I would need a extremely long cat5 wire to come all the way back to the unit. I did not see a mention of this problem in the details. I didn't see or know what red tape was for. I am only trying to find the easiest way to resolve the problem. Would you be interested in sending me any programmed songs other than the couple that you listed when I paid for the units. I THOUGHT that would be an easy resolution. I am NOT trying to start a conflict or offend anyone!"    Thoughts ?   

[CaptainMurdoch]

One option would possible be for you to offer to have him ship the bad unit back to you (on your dime) while the money is held in dispute and you could repair the bad port and send it back so that it fits the auction description.  Then ship it back to him and have him release the funds.  If this is in the ebay communication logs and he agrees to it then you are showing as having taken an effort to correct the issue.  If he does not release the funds after receiving the repaired unit back, then you can go to ebay and use their dispute resolution process because you will have showed that you made the best effort to correct the situation (without side-stepping or cutting them out of any fees).  If instead he refuses to go along with the deal at all, then he is on record in the communication logs as not wanting to work to let you resolve the situation and you are still on the good side of the ebay dispute.  Best case is that you are out the two-way shipping for the unit and a little bit of your time to repair.  Worst case would probably be that you are right where you are at right now.

[MrChristmas2000]

I think by him stating that he is new to the LOR hardware he is a junior neophyte at this hobby. Almost to the point he expects everything to be MR Christmas Plug and play.

He does sound a little more reasonable like by wanting to resolve the one board. I agree with the other comments about offering to fix it for him. One thing of note is that unless he has a lot of other hardware that he is going to have to have at least one at the end of a LOR network chain.

[taybrynn]

Great suggestions.    At this point I'd gladly fix it for him.     I agree, he's going to have one unit at the end of his network chain but I think he must not want it at that location for some reason.   A 100' cat5 is like $10 ?   It almost sounds like he doesn't want to hassle with even shipping himself.   I wonder if he knows that even if I gave him some sequences that there is still some work involved in getting them to work on his show.   I.e. Not plug and play .... But the same as buying one from lor I guess.   My worry is I give him some sequences and he then doesn't drop the case and I'm back to where I'm at.    Maybe I send him a list and have him pick 10 .... And just agree to drop the case when those 10 are delivered and received via email?   He previously requested 40 and I don't even know that I have that many.    I think repair and shipping both ways .... Or give him sequences.   As stated above, I dot see the harm.    I'd give them away to a friend, I just didn't like the perceived tone ... Which may not have been as bad as I thought.

[twooly]

I wouldn't do the sequences, they could then come back and say it doesn't work with my layout can you set them up like x.  Offer the fix or partial/full refund if they send it back.  That's more than fair.

[taybrynn]

Thats what I was thinking also.   So I did agree to send the buyer two sequences as part of the sale.  He had not been interested in any of my messages that tried to deliver those to him.  So the only argument FOR going that route might be that I'm already going to be giving him 2 sequences ... so if I upped that to say 10 ... he might be satisfied.  But I agree, he likely isn't going to understand the work involved in getting a sequence and how its less work, but certainly requires a lot of cut and paste at a minimum and a knowledge of how to setup your initial 48 channels, etc.  And as mentioned, he could claim it "doesn't fit my show" and I'm back to square one again.  I am leaning towards offering to pay shipping both ways and repair it ... in return for him dropping the case.  Of course that costs me $40 or more.