DiyLightAnimation

Fun => The Porch => Topic started by: jthtiger on December 02, 2010,

Title: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: jthtiger on December 02, 2010,

Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

For example this video, while it's a great display, just looks like the lights playing some sequences with background music.

http://www.vimeo.com/8479868

This video is a little better with actually syncing the lights to the music, but I still think there's room for improvement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnk0KjWxgMA&feature=related

My biggest issue is with leaping arches. It seems off when they leap with no regard to the beat of the music.

I know I sound very critical, but I'm not trying to be. I just want to know your guys' opinion on why this happens.

I work with concert lighting, so I know the value of having lights that go with the music, as opposed to patterns with background music.

I don't know, maybe I'm being a jerk here.

Thoughts?

-Tyler Herron

P.S. I'm not claiming I'm doing any better, by the way. I don't have any videos of my display, and I'm only doing a static display this year.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: rrowan on December 02, 2010,

Hi Tyler,

It all about learning and growing. Some people are going to be better than others. Take me for instance. I know nothing about music, I am good with hardware and software. I know my sequences are not great but at the same time if I am happy with it and other people enjoy than that is all that I could ask for. We do this for as a hobby which is miles away from what most professional commercial folks would do.

I truly look forward to see what you can show and teach us. To help all of us make a better show. At the same time no one has the right to put another person's show down.

Cheers

Rick R.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: zwiller on December 02, 2010,

Yes, you are a jerk!   ;D

I understand your position.  Because I am a musician, I am very particular about the coordination of lights to music.  I also agree most shows I've seen lack the precision I require of my own sequences.  However, to each his own.  This is all art and Christmas is meant to be a positive and enjoyable experience for all.

I am only 32 channels while most guys are pushing the multiple universe envelope.  However, my sequences are TIGHT.  That said, my 10 year old daughter has made it clear to me that precision is not required.  In fact, there are alot of blinking displays in my neck of the woods that have no music whatsoever. 

I think with the advent of RGB, the animated light show thing is going to be even less music driven.  Maybe they will give 2 awards: One for best RGB show and one for tightest light sequencing.  Oh wait...   There aren't any awards!   ;D 

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: Rainlover on December 02, 2010,

Personally, I think the Holdman videos are beautiful. I don't know if there is a fixture more copied than the Holdman Star.
A lot of times, people will film their displays and then lay the audio over the top. It is not always easy to get the audio and video synchronized.
This is our first year animating lights and I know that our sequences are pretty primitive and simple. I expect next year to be better and so on and so on. There is a learning curve for Vixen or LOR or LSP.
Some animations are better than others. I don't think people would publish their videos if they weren't proud of them. Not everyone is musical.
Of course, this is only my opinion. Yours may vary.

John

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: jthtiger on December 02, 2010,

I agree with you guys, and I wasn't trying to put anyone down. I forgot for the moment that it was a hobby, where as my motivations on most everything I do are more than the average hobbyist.

I guess it all boils down to what zwiller said: "to each his own" I enjoy tight sequences, where as the blinky flashy may be all someone else requires.

And, I've been in a bad mood this week. . . so. I'm being too critical.

-Tyler Herron

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: KeithTarpley on December 02, 2010,

Greetings,,,

You've got a whole 'nother year now to show us how it's done...

(So we can steal the ideas for the year after...)

 ;D

Keith

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: mmais68569 on December 02, 2010,

OK TYLER


          Post your video & show us how it is DONE.

                Mike

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: lineman on December 02, 2010,

Tyler
 
 All I want to say is Merry Christmas and I hope you start to feel better GOD BLESS

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: Rainlover on December 02, 2010,

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Tyler
 
 All I want to say is Merry Christmas and I hope you start to feel better GOD BLESS

Thanks Jeff.

John

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: RJ on December 02, 2010,

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Tyler
 
 All I want to say is Merry Christmas and I hope you start to feel better GOD BLESS

Best reply in the thead!    <wd..

RJ

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: warspyder on December 02, 2010,

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I agree with you guys, and I wasn't trying to put anyone down.

Didn't sound like you were to me. I sequenced 2 songs, then found a bunch of sequences available to download, at this moment I stink at sequencing.

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And, I've been in a bad mood this week. . . so. I'm being too critical.

-Tyler Herron

Must be the time of year or something in the water. My whole household has been grumpy!

Flash on!

Mark

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: jthtiger on December 02, 2010,

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

It could just be that it's finals week and I have a lot on my plate.

-Tyler Herron

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: castortiu on December 02, 2010,

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How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

You may have the most amazing hardware but without the software is just a shining box :) “Quote from Bill Gates to the creator of the Altair.”

Until we don’t have software that can make sequencing easier to a new level probably we won’t see too often amazing sequences.

Cas.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: trekster on December 02, 2010,

I don't know, maybe I'm being a jerk here.

Thoughts?

-Tyler Herron


When a man is right, he is right!

Ron

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: Jeffl on December 02, 2010,

You have to be able to see the cool things in both the video links.   Both are very cool in their own right.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: ptone on December 03, 2010,

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Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: jthtiger on December 03, 2010,

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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

For my very first show, I didn't have the community here. I used what I knew, which was professional lighting and music equipment. I had two DMX dimmer packs (4 channels each) and a traditional lighting console. With faders and everything. I programmed scenes into the console and then connected the console via MIDI to my laptop. I was running ProTools M-Powered 7 on my laptop with an M-Audio Firewire 410. I placed my music into a track in PT and then was able to place MIDI events on a timeline which corresponded to the music (it was gridded in tempo with the music, so I could place events directly on the beat). The MIDI events would trigger the different scenes of the console and voila! You can make it as tight as you want, all the way down to 1/64th of a beat.

My second year, I used Vixen. It was much more difficult to get the tight sequence, yes. Maybe if we had sequencing software with beat analysis and tempo controls. That way we can fill in the boxes on the beat.

I don't have my dimmer packs this year because they are being used at my church. Hopefully next year, I can build some of the dimmers here.

-Tyler Herron

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: magic8192 on December 03, 2010,

I would love to see some video of your show.   If it looks better than Holdman's then you will be winning awards all over the place.

You have chosen to criticize one of the best looking shows around.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: jthtiger on December 03, 2010,

I've never seen this community get so hostile before. I didn't criticize the Holdman display, it's wonderful. I said there was room for improvement. Which, there is always room for improvement no matter what you're doing. I agree, I didn't come off as I had intended, and I apologize deeply if I hurt anyone.

In the original post, I asked for your opinions on why the sequences don't sync perfectly with the music. Some of you answered that:

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A lot of times, people will film their displays and then lay the audio over the top. It is not always easy to get the audio and video synchronized.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Until we don’t have software that can make sequencing easier to a new level probably we won’t see too often amazing sequences.

Cas.

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I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

I just wanted your opinions on this matter. I'm new at this. I've only gotten my feet wet with Vixen. I haven't touched any of the other programs so I don't know what they are like. I just know what worked for me the first year, and what was difficult about it the second year. Which I expected. The first year I was using ALL professional equipment, because that's what I had access too. The next year, I wanted to see how everyone else was doing it. I commend you guys, because you've managed to put on some amazing displays on an extremely low budget!

And please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I have more money than you guys do, or am better because I used professional equipment. I work with stage lighting all the time. I've built up my own small lighting rig to put on concerts with over the past 4 years starting when I was 14. That's just what I had lying around, so it didn't cost me anything at the time.

Again, I'm sorry if you guys thought I was putting down the displays because that is totally not what I intended. I just simply wanted you're opinions on why it was so difficult to sequence the lights. Which has been answered. The hardware and creativity has surpassed the software at the moment.

-Tyler Herron

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: magic8192 on December 03, 2010,

I am not being hostile, but when I saw the video you were referencing, I was a little surprised.  I would bet most people on this site have used ideas from Holdman's display.  

There is nothing wrong with setting the bar high.

I will agree with you about the arches.  they are the weakest point of his display.  

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: rrowan on December 03, 2010,

I think everyone has made their points

Please no more attacks on Tyler. He has repeated his thoughts in a better way and has also apologize for the first post.

I think we all need to get back to working on our displays and helping others.

Tyler, I mistook your first post and I also apologize if I said anything to offend you.

Cheers

Rick R.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: Greg on December 03, 2010,

Oh come on Rick, I didn't get a chance to make a point or two... 

I tend to be my own harshest critic as many of us do and my sequences are never good enough for me but, the public who return over and over to watch apparently doesn't mind if I think it isn't quite up to par.  I've determined that my internal critic strongly prefers events to slightly lead the music if they cannot be exactly on the beat and late events are to be avoided at all costs.

As for videos... Like many, I overdub the audio onto the video and syncing can be challenging with less than pro equipment.  For instance, unbeknownst prior to editing, the camera I used last year captured the NTSC video at 30.03 frames per second rather than at the correct rate of 29.97 frames per second.  In less than pro level editing systems, correcting this sort of problem is impossible and the longer the video is, the worse the A/V sync problem is going to get. 

Anyhow...  Perfection does not exist and all we can do is try to the best of our ability within time constraints to get it close enough not to be objectionable to our harshest critic which for me is myself.

okay I'm done, everyone can now wake up.

Greg

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: ptone on December 03, 2010,

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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Hey Guys,

I have an issue, I guess, with some of the videos I've been seeing. How come most of the displays out there seem to be more like christmas lights just running some chase patterns/sequences with music added on top. I haven't seen many displays that merge the lights with the music. Does that make sense?

I think the biggest challenge in getting tight sequences, is that when in the sequencing software, the way you interact with it, is very removed from the music.  Its a grid of little squares that need filling.

How would you improve on that?  I've got my own ideas.  But I always feel that a challenge should be presented with a possible solution.

-Preston

For my very first show, I didn't have the community here. I used what I knew, which was professional lighting and music equipment. I had two DMX dimmer packs (4 channels each) and a traditional lighting console. With faders and everything. I programmed scenes into the console and then connected the console via MIDI to my laptop. I was running ProTools M-Powered 7 on my laptop with an M-Audio Firewire 410. I placed my music into a track in PT and then was able to place MIDI events on a timeline which corresponded to the music (it was gridded in tempo with the music, so I could place events directly on the beat). The MIDI events would trigger the different scenes of the console and voila! You can make it as tight as you want, all the way down to 1/64th of a beat.

My second year, I used Vixen. It was much more difficult to get the tight sequence, yes. Maybe if we had sequencing software with beat analysis and tempo controls. That way we can fill in the boxes on the beat.

I don't have my dimmer packs this year because they are being used at my church. Hopefully next year, I can build some of the dimmers here.

-Tyler Herron

Tyler, I'm currently going down the path of using midi - but am building something that goes between midi and DMX.  Actually MIDI can/will be just one of several trigger options (I've already demoed using the Kinect 3D sensor).

Here are a couple links describing the start of the project - it's a bit more for the technical crowd, and primarily will run on Mac, Linux.

http://diylightanimation.com/index.php?topic=3556.0

http://diylightanimation.com/index.php?topic=3678.msg67832#msg67832

-P

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: sean815 on December 04, 2010,

I understand what Tyler is saying because I put a lot of effort in the sequencing to match music with movement and colors.

HOWEVER... Im happy just to see some mismatched boxes of mini lights thrown up in someones tree or a Gemmy light show product on a bush. TOO many people now a days don't do anything at all and it is kinda saddening!

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: jthtiger on December 05, 2010,

@ptone that looks promising! Are you coding in Python? I think I read that in there (I'll admit, I kind of skimmed it. Was reading on my phone). I wish I knew Python. I'm a java guy myself. The year after I left my high school, they started offering a python course. Made me mad. I think if the next sequencing software, at the very least, should have a timeline with tempo controls. I can see something like Vixen being very useful if the timeline was gridded with a beat and could change dynamically to a tempo.

@sean815 Bahaha! I know what you mean. There's a house near here that has a single set of lights along the top of their fence. The lights are alternating white and blue incandescents. However, they are the only house along that street with lights on them. They got the spirit!

-Tyler Herron

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: rogerwh on December 05, 2010,

Tyler - I think Rick hit it best when he said that most of us just aren't very good at music.  My son destroy's me on guitar hero because even with the visual clues I can't get it right.  Eliminate the visual portion, and well, let's just say I could make noise that would drive the dogs under the house. 

Believe me, folks on here are the most helpful and sharing that I have ever seen.  AS has been mentioned, RJ is the king when it comes to hardware.  But software wise, it seems we're still a step or two behind the hardware.  Any tidbits you could give the community to improve the shows would be very welcome.  But always remember, most of us on here are just overgrown kids and as long as we have blinking and flashing that we can control, everything beyond that is gravy.

Title: Re: Disappointment? maybe.
Post by: rm357 on December 05, 2010,

For me it's just a question of learning the software and time constraints. My first sequence is only 1 minute and 22 seconds, but it took me over three hours to program 74 channels... (video is coming soon). I want to add two more songs (2 min and 4 min respectively) before Christmas, but with everything else going on in December, there is not a lot of time available...

RM