DiyLightAnimation
Hardware => Lynx Smart String => Topic started by: Steve Gase on September 26, 2013,
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Review of Technicolor Strings
by Steve Gase, Sept. 25th, 2013
Today I received a shipment of Technicolor smart strings from Ray Wu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5RiyvTshYQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5RiyvTshYQ)
The following is a collection of observations that can may guide you in your own selection of smart LED strings.
Ray Wu offers Technicolor strings in various configurations. The string design is available from many manufacturers and vendors. The variations in chip, and chip speeds may introduce compatibility problems. The WS2811 12v chip is compatible with DLA Smart String controllers, but ONLY if the chip speed is consistent with the DLA firmware. At this time, only Ray Wu is known to produce WS2811 strings with the correct speed, compatible with DLA.
Among the customizations available from Ray Wu, the WS2811 chip can substituted with the TM1804 chip. Using the TM1804 adds additional cost to the string because the chip itself is more costly. Since DLA has supported TM1804 since the beginning of the SSC, this might be considered a "safer" choice. Based on observations below, using TM1804 is unnecessary.
Other chips and voltages are available from Ray Wu for non-DLA applications. Ray Wu can also alter spacing, lead wire length, and tail wire length to your specifications. Customizations usually will not add to the cost, but they may add to the manufacturing/delivery time.
The 13.5mm 3-core water-proof connectors used by the Technicolor strings are compatible in size and fit with the connectors used in DLA SSC coops.
A "standard" Technicolor string has a 76-inch lead wire, has 5" spacing from the center of one LED to the center of the next LED, and a 6" tail wire.
Power:
Using a 50-count WS2811 string, and the SSCv3 in test mode, I observed 2.76 amps during a "full white". If you extrapolate this out, using all 1365 pixels in a 4096-channel pixelnet universe will consume 905-watts... using the 80% rule for planning, you'd need a power supply that delivers 1150-watts of 12v power for this "max" configuration.
A 100-count string will use 5.5 amps... which exceeds the 4 amp rating of the SSC and cat5 wire used for power delivery. Power Injection at the end of the 100-count string will be necessary.
The benefits of the Technicolor smart strings include:- injection-molded case to prevent water intrusion (strings have been submerged and frozen without ill-effect)
- black UV-resistent wiring and plastic (this has a downside in identifying the wires)
- water-proof connectors at each end of the string
- extensions on the case to allow zip-tie mounting
- flat back on the case to allow consistent directional mounting
- each case is marked on the side with the direction (pointing from input end to output end)
For my tests, I had 50-count and 100-count strings, each with 12v WS2811 and TM1804 chips.
I also tested each with DLA smart string SSC controllers: v1, v2 (altered to v3), and v4... with latest firmware (as of 9/25/13)
In short -- all combinations worked as intended. ;D ;D ;D I used xLights to vary intensities, and generate various effects and color mixtures. Each configuration was tested for 10+ minutes before moving to the next test combination.
Gotchas... Pin Usage:
The string includes pre-wired 3-conductor water-proof connectors. The wiring scheme MAY be different from a scheme you have implemented in your own 3-conductor smart string setups. The scheme documented in the DLA wiki is INCOMPATIBLE with the new Technicolor strings. Care should be taken in your wiring and your mixing of other smart strings and controllers to prevent damage of the lights and/or controllers.
Adding to the confusion is a black-and-white photo with mark-ups which is found on Ray Wu's site. In this picture the output connector is correctly described, but the input connector is wrong.
The correct connector pins and wire definitions are captured below in a picture.
The Ray Wu TM1804 and WS2811 strings each used the identical pin-outs.
Gotchas... Color Order:
The order of Red, Green, Blue is different from other smart string pixels offered by Ray Wu. The current LYNX Smart String Utility can be used to alter the color order, and future versions of this software will improve the selection process. If "String" is selected for the Smart String Device Type, then the colors will appear as BGR (blue, green, red) and will mismatch most sequence software. If "Square Modules" is selected, then RGB order will be presented.
Color order is consistent for both TM1804 and WS2811 Technicolor strings. Using BGR or "Square Modules" will fix this for both chips.
Gotchas... Weight:
When first holding a bundle of Technicolor strings, you may notice that they are heavier, likely due to the improved casing. I compared a 100-count Technicolor string with a 100-count older smart string. Technicolor: 2-lbs 7-oz Older string with connector: 1-lb, 5-oz. Weight of the strings may impact your method to hang the lights, and also the appearance -- as they are more likely to bow inwards.
Gotchas... Power Injection:
Some users are planning to use power-injection to limit dimming at the end of the strings. Using 2 of the three pins on the output connector will simplify this task. Ray Wu also has T-connectors that can be used for this purpose.
Ordering information:
50nodes DC12V WS2811 LED technicolor pixel;waterproof, full color
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/50nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel-waterproof-full-color/701799_922175400.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/50nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel-waterproof-full-color/701799_922175400.html)
100nodes DC12V WS2811 LED technicolor pixel
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/100nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel/701799_922162404.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/100nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel/701799_922162404.html)
100nodes DC12V TM1804 LED technicolor
(custom, no link available)
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/39/q9dp.jpg)
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3315/g8eo.jpg)
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/384/1t2m.jpg)
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Thanks for the informative review. Did you order any of the covers screw-on vs slip-on?
Tom
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Just a heads up. Due to the overwhelming positive response to these, I have been working on a V2 technicolor string. They are just about finished, although will probably arrive too late for most people to feel comfortable planning, etc. Although they will not be available in multiple IC types, (will only be ws2811) there will be several improvements. Most notable is the change to using a waterproof 5050 SMD type LED. The lower power consumption on these allows for longer runs before you need to inject as well as being just a bit brighter. There were some challenges getting the newly designed PCB to fit the technicolor design and there is an additional step to "pot" the LED at the top but the chip itself is already waterproof so it will remain exposed and bare. This means that they are also EXTREMELY bright. There are a few additional features being finalized on these as well. Can't give it all away right? They will be slightly more expensive than the V1 Technicolor due to the many improvements but should still be well under the other available vendor solutions.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/BYJPlZPs0c9BflVGh85Xp7QqSD22RXyVEGfQG8Jkj-c=w650-h500-no)
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Thanks for the informative review. Did you order any of the covers screw-on vs slip-on?
Tom
I ordered some samples, but I'm waiting on them and the rest of my custom order.
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Thanks for the great review.
I should be getting my strands of 100 in soon. Based on your testing do you see that power injection for a string of 100 will be nessessary?
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Great information, Steve. I felt as though I was reading something straight out of Consumer Reports!
Just a heads up. Due to the overwhelming positive response to these, I have been working on a V2 technicolor string. They are just about finished, although will probably arrive too late for most people to feel comfortable planning, etc. Although they will not be available in multiple IC types, (will only be ws2811) there will be several improvements. Most notable is the change to using a waterproof 5050 SMD type LED. The lower power consumption on these allows for longer runs before you need to inject as well as being just a bit brighter. There were some challenges getting the newly designed PCB to fit the technicolor design and there is an additional step to "pot" the LED at the top but the chip itself is already waterproof so it will remain exposed and bare. This means that they are also EXTREMELY bright. There are a few additional features being finalized on these as well. Can't give it all away right? They will be slightly more expensive than the V1 Technicolor due to the many improvements but should still be well under the other available vendor solutions.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/BYJPlZPs0c9BflVGh85Xp7QqSD22RXyVEGfQG8Jkj-c=w650-h500-no)
I'm intrigued...
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Thanks for the great review.
I should be getting my strands of 100 in soon. Based on your testing do you see that power injection for a string of 100 will be nessessary?
I need to look up the data on the SSC constraints, but I suspect that the 5.5 amp draw for a single 100-count string is too large and power injection will be needed.
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I need to look up the data on the SSC constraints, but I suspect that the 5.5 amp draw for a single 100-count string is too large and power injection will be needed.
If a single 100pixel strand is 5.5A then yes that will require injection. Max for SSC is rated at 4A. Not good news....
I'll be using a 4 Port Passive Hub to control mine, will power injection with this even be an option for me?
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I need to look up the data on the SSC constraints, but I suspect that the 5.5 amp draw for a single 100-count string is too large and power injection will be needed.
If a single 100pixel strand is 5.5A then yes that will require injection. Max for SSC is rated at 4A. Not good news....
I'll be using a 4 Port Passive Hub to control mine, will power injection with this even be an option for me?
the SSC limitations are in part due to the capacity of the cat5 cabling used to the SSC. If you inject power from the other end (the output end) of the string, the you should be OK.
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You can inject power from the end of a 100 count string as well. There is a plug and play injection solution coming along with the V2 technicolors. There's also a new dual voltage strip with the banding integrated and a totally new bullet node in the works as well.
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Cool. (Sorry for derailing this thread)
I have a lot of 18/2 wire that it sounds like I could use. Just straight from the power supply to the output end only using 2 of the pins? (12v+ & Ground)
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Cool. (Sorry for derailing this thread)
I have a lot of 18/2 wire that it sounds like I could use. Just straight from the power supply to the output end only using 2 of the pins (12v+ & Ground)
That would be an un-fused connection and could be problematic.
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Cool. (Sorry for derailing this thread)
I have a lot of 18/2 wire that it sounds like I could use. Just straight from the power supply to the output end only using 2 of the pins (12v+ & Ground)
That would be an un-fused connection and could be problematic.
I'm told that only 12V+ needs to be brought to the output end... And adding a fuse is definitely a good idea!
I wonder about the amount of current flowing over the single ground wire in this case, however... :-
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If the limiting factor for 4A is the size of the conductors within cat5, could you just not get your power from the SSC and run your 12V+ & ground straight from the power supply? I tried drawing up this idea.
(http://i.imgur.com/d5Ztc36l.jpg)
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You can, absolutely. However, the issue with drop is the length of the string and the number of pixels. After about 75-80 pixels there isn't sufficient power left to properly operate the IC. In order to run 100 straight pixels, you will have to inject additional power. This won't be as big of an issue with the V2 strings.
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Steve, Thanks for the review. I have 100 strings coming in as well but they are custom.
For others: Do you have a link to just how to do fused injection to multiple strings from a single power supply?
How many strings can a single power supply from Ray be used for additional injection?
Thanks,
Bill
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There is no need for a link. A simple in-line automotive fuse between the supply and each string will work just fine. As for the number of strings for a single power supply, the real question is how many pixels and that really depends on the current draw of each pixel and the power capacity of the power supply.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you decide to or need to power inject the strings, that you separate the power lead between the last node that you want the hub to power and the following node that will be powered by the injected power. There is no need to separate or cut the ground wire and even though it is suggested that only the 12V line be connected to the end of the string, I would strongly suggest that both the 12V and the ground be connected at the injection point.
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:) Thanks a bunch tbone that makes sense. I will try it.
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So I can run 16 of the 50 count technicolor strings on my Zuess without having to add any power injection? And the 2811 chips will work?
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Yes if the strings that you are using pull less than 4A each AND if the 2811 chips are clocked correctly. If they work with the SSC's, then they will work with the Zeus as well.
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thank you for the reply. So the strings that are linked in the original post 50 count should work. It's time to talk to the CFO. :)
Sorry about the thread hijack. Continue on.
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thank you for the reply. So the strings that are linked in the original post 50 count should work. It's time to talk to the CFO. :)
Sorry about the thread hijack. Continue on.
smooth sailing ahead... have fun!
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Thanks for the great review.
I should be getting my strands of 100 in soon. Based on your testing do you see that power injection for a string of 100 will be nessessary?
Yes !
I have a strand of the 100 count Technicolor strings and I had to inject power at the end and that is with the first pixel only 4 feet from the controller
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There is no need for a link. A simple in-line automotive fuse between the supply and each string will work just fine. As for the number of strings for a single power supply, the real question is how many pixels and that really depends on the current draw of each pixel and the power capacity of the power supply.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you decide to or need to power inject the strings, that you separate the power lead between the last node that you want the hub to power and the following node that will be powered by the injected power. There is no need to separate or cut the ground wire and even though it is suggested that only the 12V line be connected to the end of the string, I would strongly suggest that both the 12V and the ground be connected at the injection point.
Can you tell me if the fuse would be on the positive line?
Also I don't think I understand the bit about separating the power between the hub powered node and the injection powered node. Why is this important and how would I achieve this if I am using one of the T connectors?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Can you tell me if the fuse would be on the positive line?
Yes, you place the fuses on the positive line out of the supply.
Also I don't think I understand the bit about separating the power between the hub powered node and the injection powered node. Why is this important and how would I achieve this if I am using one of the T connectors?
In many cases it depends on why and how you are power injecting. If you are injecting power simply to stop the end of the string from dimming and you are using the same power supply on all of the injection points, then separating or cutting the power line between injection points is not necessary. If you are using different supplies and / or injecting due to current limitations, then it becomes necessary to separate the different sections from eachother.
The primary problem is if you don't and one of the power supplies shuts down for some reason (and it does happen), then the entire load will be placed on the other one. If the reason that you are injecting is due to a high current load, then you will be pushing the other power supply and / or its cable beyond its limits which can cause a fire or failure. With the hub, that may result in a blown fuse and they ae not all that easy to replace, especially if the hub is already connected into an active display.
Another issue is based on the reason why it is strongly suggested that only single rail supplies be used with the SS hubs. If there is a difference in the output voltage between the two supplies, they may fight each other to get the voltage to were they are set to operate and PC supplies are somewhat sensitive to this and are tightly regulated. Low cost power supplies tend not to be such and may cause the PC supply on the hub to work harder than necessary. It is also harder to control how much of the load is handled by each supply and the one with the higher voltage will also take most of the load.
Separating the sections eliminates all of the above problems. Each supply only powers the section of the string that it is connected to so you have com[plete control over how much of the load it is powering, the supplies never see eachother so there is no fighting if they are not operating at exactly the same voltage, and if one of the supplies cuts out, the other supply is not affected by excess load from the rest of the string.
I don't know what you mean by T connector but if you are referring to a line tap, then just cut the power line on the side of the tap that the hub is connected to.
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There is no need for a link. A simple in-line automotive fuse between the supply and each string will work just fine. As for the number of strings for a single power supply, the real question is how many pixels and that really depends on the current draw of each pixel and the power capacity of the power supply.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you decide to or need to power inject the strings, that you separate the power lead between the last node that you want the hub to power and the following node that will be powered by the injected power. There is no need to separate or cut the ground wire and even though it is suggested that only the 12V line be connected to the end of the string, I would strongly suggest that both the 12V and the ground be connected at the injection point.
Can you tell me if the fuse would be on the positive line?
Also I don't think I understand the bit about separating the power between the hub powered node and the injection powered node. Why is this important and how would I achieve this if I am using one of the T connectors?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
the fuse goes on the positive line.
the suggestion was to divide your string into pieces so that one half gets power from the SSC, and the other half gets power directly from the power supply. The suggestion was to "separate them". For two 50 count strings, it isn't as frightnening... but for a 100-count it means cutting them in half. Only the data line should be continued from one half to the next.
to accomplish this, you might want to cut the 100-count string in half... put an output (female) connector on the end of the first half.... put an input (male) connector on the front of the second half... now you have 2 similar 50-count strings.
Next, create your injector... take a male pigtail connector and using only the data line, connect it to a female pigtail connector (data line only). Finally, connect the 12V+ and ground to the female connector. this "injector" would be used to connect both halves.
It is said in the forum, that the power for the smart string injection can be provided by a second power supply. if you do use a second power supply -- be sure to separate the first and second halves. if you use a common single-rail supply -- then the separation is only suggested.
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This sounds like more work and expense than necessary. There is no need to cut the ground wire. It s a common wire and can be left alone. Just connect all of the different power supplies ground wires to it and you are good to go. They can share the same common line and having two wires intact makes the wiring of the string stronger and less likely to be broken. You can either inject the power at the cut point or at the other end of the string. If you inject at the cut point, then all you really need is to pull back the wire a few inches on the injection side and install a bullet connector for the +12V. You could use that T connector for the ground and tie it in around the same point but I would recommend injecting the power at the other end of the string. Then you have end points for both the +12V and the ground and can use a waterproof connector there if desired. Just leave the data line disconnected on that connector. At the separation point, just remove about a 1/4 inch of the +12V side and coat the exposed ends with some silicone or liquid electrical tape.
As for where the strings are split, that is more up to the power supplies being used. If you don't already have any supplies , then you might want to split the string(s) in the middle and size a single PS to handle the full load or 2 PS's to each handle half of the load. The price jumps up rather quickly for quality high output supplies. If you already have the PS for the hub, then I would place the cut points to fully utilize the output capability of the existing supply and let the injection PS pick up the rest. This may either allow you to purchase a smaller and less expensive supply to pick up the excess load or if required, pick up a larger secondary supply to reduce the load on the hub supply.
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Not sure if you can just go around the SSC with the power lines and use the power from the data stream is enough. Just put in a inline fuse.
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Not sure if you can just go around the SSC with the power lines and use the power from the data stream is enough. Just put in a inline fuse.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
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What is the real advantage of these new technicolor pixels?
I see a better mechanism for mounting.
Probably better sealing I'm sure.
Look handy to be able to screw on C9 like bulb caps.
Anything else about them that is truly much better than the standard wiki nodes ?
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Just to make this clear for me.
Is the problem that the Technicolor needs more 5 amps to run them and the SSC system only handles 4 amps? Or is it a voltage thing?
Then can we just go around the SSC with the power line and use a inline fuse?
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What is the real advantage of these new technicolor pixels?
I see a better mechanism for mounting.
Probably better sealing I'm sure.
Look handy to be able to screw on C9 like bulb caps.
Anything else about them that is truly much better than the standard wiki nodes ?
Advantages:
- better protection from water (due to injection molded case)
- less susceptible to damage and water intrusion due to stress/tension on the wire
- better mounting, and light is uniformly directed outwards
- UV-resistant wire (to extend the life of the string)
- built-in waterproof connectors
- a "system" for doing power-injection with the use of the T-connectors
- use of WS2811 chips to lower the price (compared to TM180x)
Disadvantages:
- heavier
- draws more power -- necessitating the use of power-injection for 100-pixel strings
- cost
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Just to make this clear for me.
Is the problem that the Technicolor needs more 5 amps to run them and the SSC system only handles 4 amps? Or is it a voltage thing?
Then can we just go around the SSC with the power line and use a inline fuse?
If you use 50-count strings, no power injection is needed.
If you use 100-count, or longer -- yes, you need power injection. You can inject at the middle of the string, or at the end. The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SamuE3Y5SoE/UlVhTTy911I/AAAAAAAAHeg/e3oPuV1_HEw/w707-h531-no/DSC03950.JPG)
Heads up on the newest lens to be available for the Technicolor. Designed to work with the V2 5050 but should also work with the legacy V1 strings (same thread pattern). These are the first sample lenses, expecting shipment this week on the first ones.
Z
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Just to make this clear for me.
Is the problem that the Technicolor needs more 5 amps to run them and the SSC system only handles 4 amps? Or is it a voltage thing?
Then can we just go around the SSC with the power line and use a inline fuse?
If you use 50-count strings, no power injection is needed.
If you use 100-count, or longer -- yes, you need power injection. You can inject at the middle of the string, or at the end. The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
So does that make it a volt problem or a amp problem?
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SamuE3Y5SoE/UlVhTTy911I/AAAAAAAAHeg/e3oPuV1_HEw/w707-h531-no/DSC03950.JPG)
Heads up on the newest lens to be available for the Technicolor. Designed to work with the V2 5050 but should also work with the legacy V1 strings (same thread pattern). These are the first sample lenses, expecting shipment this week on the first ones.
Z
Those are great looking. Like to see what they look like with the lights on. I wonder if you can make them like this.
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Those are great looking. I wonder if you can make them like this.
(http://diylightanimation.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12413.0;attach=12180)
I like the options that Zach has provided so far... but sittinguphigh's suggested look would be very cool! ...enough to make me consider covers. ;D
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Just to make this clear for me.
Is the problem that the Technicolor needs more 5 amps to run them and the SSC system only handles 4 amps? Or is it a voltage thing?
Then can we just go around the SSC with the power line and use a inline fuse?
If you use 50-count strings, no power injection is needed.
If you use 100-count, or longer -- yes, you need power injection. You can inject at the middle of the string, or at the end. The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
So does that make it a volt problem or a amp problem?
Its an amp problem. You could exceed the draw allowed by the fuse and the rating of the board. The voltage would also diminish at the end of the string so that the lights are dimmer... but the concern is over the amps and its impact on the wiring and traces.
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I just got some of these strings.
I'm going to order some of the bulbs and cit them in half and mount it on top.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/promotion-40mm-diameter-WS2811-led-pixel-module-injection-type-1-44W-6pcs-leds-inside-DC12V-input/701799_1325488343.html
http://www.ledholidaylighting.com/G30-LEDreplacement-dimmable-bulbs-2-1-1.aspx
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I just got some of these strings.
I'm going to order some of the bulbs and cit them in half and mount it on top.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/promotion-40mm-diameter-WS2811-led-pixel-module-injection-type-1-44W-6pcs-leds-inside-DC12V-input/701799_1325488343.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/promotion-40mm-diameter-WS2811-led-pixel-module-injection-type-1-44W-6pcs-leds-inside-DC12V-input/701799_1325488343.html)
http://www.ledholidaylighting.com/G30-LEDreplacement-dimmable-bulbs-2-1-1.aspx (http://www.ledholidaylighting.com/G30-LEDreplacement-dimmable-bulbs-2-1-1.aspx)
I think we'll need to see them in person to get a true appreciation on how that much light will work through all those facets.
It should be great!
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SamuE3Y5SoE/UlVhTTy911I/AAAAAAAAHeg/e3oPuV1_HEw/w707-h531-no/DSC03950.JPG)
Heads up on the newest lens to be available for the Technicolor. Designed to work with the V2 5050 but should also work with the legacy V1 strings (same thread pattern). These are the first sample lenses, expecting shipment this week on the first ones.
Z
Those are great looking. Like to see what they look like with the lights on. I wonder if you can make them like this.
Zach,
Shoot me PM if need be but I cannot find about info or buying technicolors and I have looked. Very interested in v2.
THANKS
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The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
I have been looking at 12V 4A fuses to use for this. I'm looking at getting a few inline fuse holders like the picture below. Seems like the easiest way to install and ensure you are fused.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/3-PACK-10-GAUGE-ATC-FUSE-HOLDER-W-FUSE-IN-LINE-AWG-WIRE-COPPER-12-VOLT-BLADE-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/cwIAAOxyPLpReLCy/$T2eC16J,!)QE9s3HEESWBReLC)Y(Ww~~60_57.JPG)
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The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
I have been looking at 12V 4A fuses to use for this. I'm looking at getting a few inline fuse holders like the picture below. Seems like the easiest way to install and ensure you are fused.
Can you pass along the buying details? they look very nice!
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Can you pass along the buying details? they look very nice!
Radio Shack has them, http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3150583 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3150583) but the place I've seen them listed most is on Ebay, http://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-inline-fuse (http://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-inline-fuse). I've never used any of them before so can't speak to the quality
Speaking of fuses......I would assume 4A would be the best choice since that is the same amperage the SSC are rated for?
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Just to make this clear for me.
Is the problem that the Technicolor needs more 5 amps to run them and the SSC system only handles 4 amps? Or is it a voltage thing?
Then can we just go around the SSC with the power line and use a inline fuse?
If you use 50-count strings, no power injection is needed.
If you use 100-count, or longer -- yes, you need power injection. You can inject at the middle of the string, or at the end. The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
So does that make it a volt problem or a amp problem?
Its an amp problem. You could exceed the draw allowed by the fuse and the rating of the board. The voltage would also diminish at the end of the string so that the lights are dimmer... but the concern is over the amps and its impact on the wiring and traces.
So the reason you can't hook the power line up around the SSC at the beginning is the extra amps will fry the wire and chips?
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The SSC doesn't have a fuse. It is depending on the fuse in the hub. The fuses are sized to protect the weakest link and in the hub, they are set to protect the CAT 5 cable which due to the gauge of the wire, is the weakest link there. If you are talking about power injection, then you would base the fuse size on what you need for the added injection to supply while taking into account the max that both the supply can deliver and the gauge of the wire that you will be using can deal with. I would suspect that it would be less than 4A so a 4A fuse would work well there.
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Just to make this clear for me.
Is the problem that the Technicolor needs more 5 amps to run them and the SSC system only handles 4 amps? Or is it a voltage thing?
Then can we just go around the SSC with the power line and use a inline fuse?
If you use 50-count strings, no power injection is needed.
If you use 100-count, or longer -- yes, you need power injection. You can inject at the middle of the string, or at the end. The 12V+ wire used to provide injection should be fused.
So does that make it a volt problem or a amp problem?
Its an amp problem. You could exceed the draw allowed by the fuse and the rating of the board. The voltage would also diminish at the end of the string so that the lights are dimmer... but the concern is over the amps and its impact on the wiring and traces.
So the reason you can't hook the power line up around the SSC at the beginning is the extra amps will fry the wring and chips?
it is possible to supply more power at the START of the string using heavier-gauge wire, bigger fuse, etc. You'd just drop the 12v+ and ground that comes from the hub while retaining the data line. If you do this, then introduce the new power AFTER the SSC and not before.... there is no reason to allow more current through the SSC and reduce the benefit of the 4A fuse that is found on the hub.
I personally wouldn't do this... because you will still have fallout over the length of the string as the voltage decreases due to the power withdrawn by the LEDs and the resistance of the wire. Also the wires connecting each pixel to the next are not heavy gauge, and therefore you risk some damage there if your strings were too long. But, assuming that someone took that into account for the 100-count strings, then a larger fuse and heavier wire from the supply will allow you to use one connection without further injection.
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So the problem is wire is not heavy enough to supple the amps for a 100 Technicolor strings from the beginning.
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Wire size, at least in the case of 100 count string, is irrelevant. The drop is due to loss at each pixel from the resistors. In the 12V strings we are actually wasting more power than we are using for the LED itself, that's why you see the 5V strings. Now, the 12V gives us something more people are familiar working with and allows for longer runs than the 5V with less wasted power. It's a trade off. The strings are being made now with 20 gauge high strand, which is supposed to compare to an 18 gauge. It was important to get the UV rated wire and the UV rated 18 gauge is too large to fit the solder pads on the PCB and the molds would have to be again modified to accept it. In the overall design, we decided it was easier to limit them to 50 count and 100 count with injection at both ends. The V2 strings will most likely be 85 count strings. There is also an easier injection solution being developed that should make injection along the line much simpler and more plug and play.
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Why then does the 128 node LED pixel string ;DC12V input;new model,IP68;TM1804IC
work with 128 nodes then? What is the difference between the two?
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Why then does the 128 node LED pixel string ;DC12V input;new model,IP68;TM1804IC
work with 128 nodes then? What is the difference between the two?
The technicolor pixels from Ray pull more amperage than your normal SS pixels.
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Is it the WS2811 chip?
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Is it the WS2811 chip?
You can get the Technicolor pixels in 1804 or 2811. The standard SS pixels are 1804 and are officially 'supported' by the SS system. (even though 2811 now works with v4) To my knowledge the chipset mazes zero difference on power consumption.
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Then that is the question. What is the difference?
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Wire size, at least in the case of 100 count string, is irrelevant. The drop is due to loss at each pixel from the resistors. In the 12V strings we are actually wasting more power than we are using for the LED itself, that's why you see the 5V strings. Now, the 12V gives us something more people are familiar working with and allows for longer runs than the 5V with less wasted power. It's a trade off. The strings are being made now with 20 gauge high strand, which is supposed to compare to an 18 gauge. It was important to get the UV rated wire and the UV rated 18 gauge is too large to fit the solder pads on the PCB and the molds would have to be again modified to accept it. In the overall design, we decided it was easier to limit them to 50 count and 100 count with injection at both ends. The V2 strings will most likely be 85 count strings. There is also an easier injection solution being developed that should make injection along the line much simpler and more plug and play.
This is incorrect. The issue with Lynks limiting the current to 4A is that we are using CAT5 cable between the hub and the SSC and this can be a significant length and CAT5 uses THIN wires. So it is NOT the voltage drop that is causingthe issue, it is the total added current draw of these new nodes exceeding the assumptions made during the design of the hub and the fuses it is using. These were based on the current draw of the original set of nodes available when it was designed and these new nodes draw more current.
While it is true that the 5V is SLIGHTLY more efficient, the other side is that they REQUIRE power injection in longer strings due to voltage drop dropping the voltage below what the LED requires to light at all on long lengths. This is not the case with RJ's 12V strings. Lets remember that this is a PARALLEL circuit as far as power goes so the resistors in each node have little to do with it. The only resistance that can cause voltage drop it is the resistance in the wire itself which when combined with the current draw of each node causes the voltage drop along the length of the string.
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Then that is the question. What is the difference?
The difference in most cases are the LED's being used. Even with LED's, brighter usually means more power needed.
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So the difference is the LED bulb being used.
Is what you are saying then is Technicolor string bulbs use more amps then the RJ's 12V strings. Can we verify that?
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Yes. The different node types pull different amps. This info is usually on Ray's order page. Even the newer ip68 version of the original ip66 nodes draw more power.
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Are the technicolor nodes "noticeably" brighter than Ray's?
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So are you saying the RJs 12V strings now coming out will draw more amps?
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So are you saying the RJs 12V strings now coming out will draw more amps?
that seems to be the message... don't expect anything coming from china (ray wu) to be constant unless they come from the same order... make that the same carton.
wire colors change, power draw changes, ...
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Wire size, at least in the case of 100 count string, is irrelevant. The drop is due to loss at each pixel from the resistors. In the 12V strings we are actually wasting more power than we are using for the LED itself, that's why you see the 5V strings. Now, the 12V gives us something more people are familiar working with and allows for longer runs than the 5V with less wasted power. It's a trade off. The strings are being made now with 20 gauge high strand, which is supposed to compare to an 18 gauge. It was important to get the UV rated wire and the UV rated 18 gauge is too large to fit the solder pads on the PCB and the molds would have to be again modified to accept it. In the overall design, we decided it was easier to limit them to 50 count and 100 count with injection at both ends. The V2 strings will most likely be 85 count strings. There is also an easier injection solution being developed that should make injection along the line much simpler and more plug and play.
I am sorry but this incorrect. The wire is what causes the voltage drop. The resistors are not in series with the 12 volt feed. 12v passes directly though each node to the next. If this was not true only the first node would work correct and the resistors on the nod would need to be the size of hot dog to handle the wattage of power being dissipated.
I normally do not chime in but when I see incorrect information that may confuse members I want to make sure we clear it up. The only voltage drop in the string from the supply 12v is loss do to wire, pcb traces on each node from in to out on power and the solder joints on the pcb attaching the power wire.
RJ
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Excuse me for not understanding. But what is the difference in wiring of the RJ's 12V strings and the Technicolor strings that drops the voltage or amps?
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There shouldn't be a difference.
It has been said that the latest "RJ" strings are using the same LED part as used in the Technicolor. The characteristics should be the same.
The original "RJ" strings used less power.
I recall from a couple years ago, that the rating of the original strings was .356W/pixel.
According to the current page, it is .3W/pixel.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/128-node-LED-pixel-string-DC12V-input-new-model-IP68-TM1804IC/701799_495658226.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/128-node-LED-pixel-string-DC12V-input-new-model-IP68-TM1804IC/701799_495658226.html)
The new technicolor strings also list .3W/pixel.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/128-node-LED-pixel-string-DC12V-input-new-model-IP68-TM1804IC/701799_495658226.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/128-node-LED-pixel-string-DC12V-input-new-model-IP68-TM1804IC/701799_495658226.html)
Chip type will not matter... so WS2811 or TM1804 consumes the same power.
I think the discrepancy is the measured current for the technicolor strings... 100-pixels (technicolor) use 5.5A. 128-pixels (RJ's original) use under 4A.
It seems that the specs on Ray's site are not matching real world experience.
I believe there has been confirmation of the increased power consumption... but maybe others need to also check this out.
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I am sorry but this incorrect. The wire is what causes the voltage drop. The resistors are not in series with the 12 volt feed. 12v passes directly though each node to the next. If this was not true only the first node would work correct and the resistors on the nod would need to be the size of hot dog to handle the wattage of power being dissipated.
I normally do not chime in but when I see incorrect information that may confuse members I want to make sure we clear it up. The only voltage drop in the string from the supply 12v is loss do to wire, pcb traces on each node from in to out on power and the solder joints on the pcb attaching the power wire.
RJ
I believe what I said was misunderstood and taken out of context. I never said the resistors were wired in series. What I said was that the voltage drops after each node along the string (which is correct) and that drop is due to distance, resistance of the wire, and power used (including the LED, resistors, IC, traces, joints, etc.) at each PCB along the run (which is also correct). Yes the connection is a through and through type to try to improve this. The design isn't perfect, none is, but it's always getting better. I'm hoping that the V2 strings will allow more than 100 nodes, possibly close to one universe, but it's a balance between keeping them affordable and making them the best they can be within the constraints. As I said before, hopefully some of the new solutions for power injection make it not as big of a deal, hopefully that's a solution for those with systems limited on amperage. The only goal with these was to develop a more consistent and versatile pixel without the problems of the previous generations. There's still been issues and problems identified and design changes have been made to address them, hopefully the community as a whole keeps getting better product to chose from. Still beats the hell outta dipping nodes in plastidip.
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Zach please don't take this wrong. The fact just like RJ you saw a need for a product and took his time and effort to come up with some thing that would work is appreciated by every one here. My hat off to you and RJ.
This sounds like the node is drawing more amps or volts.
If the wiring is the same size and same length.
If the wiring is the same.
Then it seems to me the node has to be the draw. Just as you say.
How does the way the injection process being done effect the draw?
Or should I say the parts and way the connection is done that would effect the draw?
There is a product Ray has right now that can use 128 nodes.
But as you showed doesn't hold up well.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/128-nodes-DC12V-input-TM1804-pixel-module-injection-molding-type-IP66/701799_739455638.html
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Excuse me for not understanding. But what is the difference in wiring of the RJ's 12V strings and the Technicolor strings that drops the voltage or amps?
It looks like you are trying to make things more complicated than it needs to be. The change is that these pixels are using a brigher LED that draws a little more current. This added current draw per node adds up when you are talking about 100+ nodes. There is no difference in the wiring of the string itself. Where the differences may come in is in how they are connected to the controller. The current configuration of the hub does not allow it to supply 5+ amps to a single string. This is also why the SCC has a channel limit of 128 nodes, to prevent people from connecting a 200 node string to a single SSC and pushing the current draw beyond its limits. These limitations were based on the current draw of the nodes available at the time of design and the wire type being used.
RJ based his design on using pre-made CAT5 cables and determined that 4A was a safe amount of current that CAT5 could handle. This would supply enough power to light up 128 nodes and using 12V, all connections can be made at one end of the string without any noticeable dimming from one end of the string to the other. If the string length (number of nodes) of these newer node strings exceeds the current hub limit per port of 4A, then you need to use power injection to reduce the current node on the SCC and the hub port which changes the way the string is connected to the system. Basically, all you are doing is counting the number of nodes that come up to around 4A and injecting another 12V source from that point on.
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I am sorry but this incorrect. The wire is what causes the voltage drop. The resistors are not in series with the 12 volt feed. 12v passes directly though each node to the next. If this was not true only the first node would work correct and the resistors on the nod would need to be the size of hot dog to handle the wattage of power being dissipated.
I normally do not chime in but when I see incorrect information that may confuse members I want to make sure we clear it up. The only voltage drop in the string from the supply 12v is loss do to wire, pcb traces on each node from in to out on power and the solder joints on the pcb attaching the power wire.
RJ
I believe what I said was misunderstood and taken out of context. I never said the resistors were wired in series. What I said was that the voltage drops after each node along the string (which is correct) and that drop is due to distance, resistance of the wire, and power used (including the LED, resistors, IC, traces, joints, etc.) at each PCB along the run (which is also correct). Yes the connection is a through and through type to try to improve this. The design isn't perfect, none is, but it's always getting better. I'm hoping that the V2 strings will allow more than 100 nodes, possibly close to one universe, but it's a balance between keeping them affordable and making them the best they can be within the constraints. As I said before, hopefully some of the new solutions for power injection make it not as big of a deal, hopefully that's a solution for those with systems limited on amperage. The only goal with these was to develop a more consistent and versatile pixel without the problems of the previous generations. There's still been issues and problems identified and design changes have been made to address them, hopefully the community as a whole keeps getting better product to chose from. Still beats the hell outta dipping nodes in plastidip.
Zach,
You replied as if I am attacking you about your nodes. I said nothing about your nodes. I was refering to you saying that :
"Wire size, at least in the case of 100 count string, is irrelevant. The drop is due to loss at each pixel from the resistors. "
This clearly reads as if you believed the resistors are to blame for the voltage drop of the supply line and I am pointing out it is not that way and the wire size is everything, so it is not irrelevant. there is no reason for you to take my post as hostile as it was not. It was to make sure people were not confused.
RJ
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This is so confusing. <fp.
The information for Rays shows the wire size is the same.
The length between the wires is about the same.
The node seems to be the same.
There are only so many parts.
The chip is different.
What else is different?
Does any one have the electronic schematics for both and that can read them?
One thing I can say you don't see any WS2811 chip strings going to 128 nodes?
Has any one done any current and volt checking of both strings to compare?
Interesting note the nodes used in both can handle Brightness: 1000-2000mcd.
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According to the wiki, the original smartstring nodes only used 29milliamps of current per node. Different node types had different limits as each type used different current amounts (for example the plastic rectangles used 52milliamps and had an 80 node limit). According to Steve's testing the Technicolor strings are using 55milliamps. Quite an increase. However according to Ray's website the current generation of smartstrings use 55-60milliamps per node. So if that is true it also would need power injection to reach the 128 node limit without gradual dimming. (If I am incorrect feel free to correct me.) I am not sure what the specs were for the first generation ip68 nodes almost 2 years ago, but I ran 84 nodes and couldn't see an intensity difference from beginning to end on those.
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The problem as said before, is not an intensity issue down the string. It is simply a matter of exceeding the current delivery that a single port of the hub can deliver with the current setup and exceeding it can blow the fuse. It seems that no matter how bright they get, it's still not bright enough for some so they keep making them bigger and brighter and more light out, more power in.
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I know you can very the current and adjust it to a max.
So what you saying that the Technicolor nodes are adjusted higher then the RJ nodes.
So if that was true as long as you set the intensity low on your program all 100 nodes would stay the same.
Only after exceeding a certain limit of current on each node you would see a dimming down of some of the nodes at the end.
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I plan on using the same power supply for all my pixels and injection power.
For my own understanding (and hopefully for others) I have drawn up a few diagrams to do the injection. The only thing I didn't draw was the ground wire on the injection points since I'm still not sure if it is needed.
Look right?
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2vdl4hx.jpg)
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I plan on using the same power supply for all my pixels and injection power.
For my own understanding (and hopefully for others) I have drawn up a few diagrams to do the injection. The only thing I didn't draw was the ground wire on the injection points since I'm still not sure if it is needed.
Look right?
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2vdl4hx.jpg)
with option #1 you still need to break the 12v+ connection midway between supplies... If you use different supplies, that is.
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with option #1 you still need to break the 12v+ connection midway between supplies... If you use different supplies, that is.
Right, that is why I specified that I plan on using the same supply.
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The pictures really help. I hope they get posted to the wiki because I have been wondering myself how this is done. I do have a couple questions though.
On picture 1, if I use the same power supply to inject power on both ends, why don't I need to split the 12V+ wire. Isn't the electricity flowing in the "wrong" direction?
On picture two, shouldn't the ground be cut also?
Steve
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The only thing I didn't draw was the ground wire on the injection points since I'm still not sure if it is needed.
Yes! You should use the ground at any power injection point. Without it you will exceed the 4 amps on the ground line and have issues with the cat 5 cable, connector, and socket. The ground must stay continuous the entire length of the string.
I plan on using the same power supply for all my pixels and injection power.
Yes! Introducing a different power supply can cause severe issues, using 1 power supply greatly reduces this.
If you must use a different power supply please use a separate hub, smart string controller,and smart string.
with option #1 you still need to break the 12v+ connection midway between supplies... If you use different supplies, that is.
Right, that is why I specified that I plan on using the same supply.
Any time you inject power, you must establish what you are injecting power for. Option #2 is best. If using option #1 cut the 12V half way.
With all of the issues of power injection, and effort put into designing around the issues, I wonder if it is worth the effort and risk. My thinking is that, when you hit the 4 Amp limit, start a new smart string. Power injection should only be used as a last resort, or if a different voltage must be used.
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On picture two, shouldn't the ground be cut also?
This has to do with the data transfer from pixel to pixel. Should there be a voltage difference on the ground line, the data transfer may be lost at the injection point. And should the difference be just wrong enough, pixel damage.
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The only thing I didn't draw was the ground wire on the injection points since I'm still not sure if it is needed.
Yes! You should use the ground at any power injection point. Without it you will exceed the 4 amps on the ground line and have issues with the cat 5 cable, connector, and socket. The ground must stay continuous the entire length of the string.
That seems contradictory. You say to connect to ground at any power injection point but also say that the ground must stay continuous the entire length.
Any time you inject power, you must establish what you are injecting power for. Option #2 is best. If using option #1 cut the 12V half way.
With all of the issues of power injection, and effort put into designing around the issues, I wonder if it is worth the effort and risk. My thinking is that, when you hit the 4 Amp limit, start a new smart string. Power injection should only be used as a last resort, or if a different voltage must be used.
I have 3 100pixel strings that I plan on using with a 4port passive hub. I'm not able to split up the strings since I'm limited on how may SSCs I can control this year. Is power injection ideal? No, but necessary with what I have.
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That seems contradictory. You say to connect to ground at any power injection point but also say that the ground must stay continuous the entire length.
This is a splice, The strings ground line is not cut, the injected ground is tied to it.
I have 3 100pixel strings that I plan on using with a 4port passive hub. I'm not able to split up the strings since I'm limited on how may SSCs I can control this year. Is power injection ideal? No, but necessary with what I have.
Not saying don't do it.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2vdl4hx.jpg)
Nice pictures!
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Taking that into account, it would seem that these drawings should be better representative.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2qxon00.jpg)
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Ok this is where there is lots of confusion. If you want to run lights that pull more than 4 amps the issue is two fold.
#1 - the cat5 feeding the ssc is not heavy enough to be pulling more than 4 amps so you need a way to get power to the string with heavier cable. So you can not feed it with cat 5. This is striaght forward.
#2 - But you need to understand that even if the cat5 could handle the current you still will run into the issue of the voltage dropping too low if you go too long. The wire on the string has resistance and is causing the voltage to drop, how much? Well this depends on the size and length of the cabling, this is the part that sets the resistance we are fighting. then you also need to know how much current we are going to pull.
Think of it this way. the same string pulling 4 amps will not have as much voltage drop and be fine. Then you up the amperage and with nothing else changed the drop is much higher. double the current you are drawing on the same string the voltage drop will double no matter how big the wire from the power supply is. If you want to over come this you need heavier wire on the strings, or shorter strings.
From the point of view of power, when we inject power we are making shorter strings. If you do need to inject, feed both power and ground other wise you do not get the full benefit. When you figure voltage drop you are looking at the power moving from one side of the circuit to the other so the lenght total of your ground and power together is what matters. so leaving the ground off only shortens the power run. But does it????? If we run a wire all the way to the other end of the string we have a wire equal in lenght to the string. So in the end it is simply that we ran a larger wire that is makeing the difference. or if you use the same size wire the drop in solder connections alone helps.
( I am still trying to figure out why we need brighter nodes on the strings. I have to set mine lower in software to keep from lighting up the yard and washing everything else out. Better nodes yes / higher current brighter ones not for me. I like not having to fool around with all this power injection. one cable works great for me!) Besides when you see what I am working on it solves this issue anyway.
RJ
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Taking that into account, it would seem that these drawings should be better representative.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2qxon00.jpg)
That's the way I would do it. Thanks. Sure the picture will help many others.
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I agree with rj, brighter no thanks mine are plenty bright and they light up everything around them. Better construction sure but I've got around that with my PVC mounting. One cable and not having to inject power is why I love rj's setup, I couldn't imagine having to line my roof having to inject power every 50 nodes or so, what a pain.
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Besides when you see what I am working on it solves this issue anyway.
RJ
I hate it when you do that!!! <res. <pop..
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+1
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What I like is the design of the Technicolor node. It seems more waterproof than the design we currently use. The brightness was already bright enough for me.
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The pictures really help. I hope they get posted to the wiki because I have been wondering myself how this is done. I do have a couple questions though.
On picture 1, if I use the same power supply to inject power on both ends, why don't I need to split the 12V+ wire. Isn't the electricity flowing in the "wrong" direction?
No, the entire wire is +12V (minus the voltage drop) so it really doesn't matter where or which end of the line the power is coming from. As long as the current is flowing thru the nodes in the correct direction, it doesn't matter which way it flows in the feed lines.
On picture two, shouldn't the ground be cut also?
Steve
Ground is common so there is no need to cut that one, even if using multiple supplies.
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Ground is common so there is no need to cut that one, even if using multiple supplies.
Correct
It seems that the only confusion remaining is regards to cutting the 12v+ conductor. It's my understanding that cutting the 12v+ conductor is only needed when you ARE NOT using the the same power supply for hub & power injection. If you are using the same power supply, no conductors need to be cut.
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[
It seems that the only confusion remaining is regards to cutting the 12v+ conductor. It's my understanding that cutting the 12v+ conductor is only needed when you ARE NOT using the the same power supply for hub & power injection. If you are using the same power supply, no conductors need to be cut.
This is also correct. There is no need to cut the +12V line if using the same power supply BUT you really need to be sure that your injection point(s) are solid because if it fails due to such things as a bad connection or a blown fuse, then the entire load will be dumped on the SSC which could cause the fuse in the hub to fail and as we know, that is not really a field replaceable component on the hub. Cutting the line where required even when using the same power supply will prevent that from happening so while not necessary, is not necessarily a bad idea.
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Here's an updated diagram that will hopefully help others on an issue that originally seemed pretty straight forward.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/14vigw6.jpg)
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These diagrams look good and should make it easier for people to understand power injection. Perhaps Rick could add these somewhere in the WIKI.
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I wonder if I by passed the SSC with the power and injected a little more volts to the string at the beginning.
Like 16 volts. Would the string handle that with out burning up? And would that keep the power going to the end?
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I wonder if I by passed the SSC with the power and injected a little more volts to the string at the beginning.
Like 16 volts. Would the string handle that with out burning up? And would that keep the power going to the end?
You're just looking for things to go wrong. There are specs for a reason.
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Were can I get them?
I know the strings are not set.
There is a variance in volts I was told by RJ.
The question would be how much?
Maybe 10 volts to 14 volts? Or what?
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If you guys are looking for a fuse block I just ordered some of these and they seem like a pretty nice solution for a decent price. http://www.delcity.net/store/ATC-&-ATO-6-Ganged-Fuse-Block/p_10960 Let me know and I can post some pictures.
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With all due respect ... the bleeding edge is a painful and expensive place to be. I think this is all very interesting and obviously do-able with workarounds and proper knowledge, but for most folks that this board was designed for ... my advise would be to stick with the wiki recommended nodes. I do like the improved form factor and waterproofing. BUt when we get into this discussion of power injection and voltages it sounds like the other diy christmas boards. Remember, the KISS principle is your friend in this hobby.
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With all due respect ... the bleeding edge is a painful and expensive place to be. I think this is all very interesting and obviously do-able with workarounds and proper knowledge, but for most folks that this board was designed for ... my advise would be to stick with the wiki recommended nodes. I do like the improved form factor and waterproofing. BUt when we get into this discussion of power injection and voltages it sounds like the other diy christmas boards. Remember, the KISS principle is your friend in this hobby.
+++1
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All I can say is that I appreciate having the ability to tinker and explore the cutting edge. I think everyone on this board appreciates all the great work that folks do to keep things simple and 'canned' to ensure things work as expected. However another really powerful part of 'do it yourself' is understanding how it works and knowing how we can expand support for other areas, knowing that it is not supported. I'm not sure if it would make sense, but it may be good to have a separate area of the forum where we can explore these topics without scaring the KISS folks...
Again, my main interest with these new nodes had to do with better form factors and better waterproofing..
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I'm not sure if it would make sense, but it may be good to have a separate area of the forum where we can explore these topics without scaring the KISS folks...
Again, my main interest with these new nodes had to do with better form factors and better waterproofing..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Sorry that is not going to happen, all general areas are open to all of the members. At one time RJ and most of the other long time members/staff were on diyc (Christmas in Shirley). They had a "privilege" area and it didn't go over well. DLA was design for beginners and will stay that way. Sure we need to improve areas but mostly we try to be like taybrynn said with the KISS principle. At times I think even this thread has gone beyond what it should be.
Rick R.
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My concern assuming Ray's specs are correct, and assuming I understand this correctly, the nodes in the WIKI can't be 128 nodes long now without injection themselves. Given that the 128 node limit was with nodes using 29ma each back then and use 56-60ma now. Am I incorrect in thinking this?
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My concern assuming Ray's specs are correct, and assuming I understand this correctly, the nodes in the WIKI can't be 128 nodes long now without injection themselves. Given that the 128 node limit was with nodes using 29ma each back then and use 56-60ma now. Am I incorrect in thinking this?
that is also my conclusion.
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I have been following this topic for a while, and still confussnd still trying to understand where it is going . If. U are worried about injection then maybe its the wrong string for you !!!! Other sites use multiple types of strings an cause serious problems with you. Some Of the people commenting already know this I have had a sample since theywere released iI found the water proofing very good. I don't know about the rest of you but i have little time to worry about power injection than to design,build,program And display it for any holiday we choose. . Some people commenting should not make decorating any harder for new be as they are at times confuse
And yes I have a sample string
Joe
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Here is where I think it stands...
(1) if you buy the Technicolor strings, be aware of their different behavior and plan accordingly.
(2) if you buy the original IP68 strings referenced by the DLA wiki, you may have unexpected problems if the power consumption no longer lets the 128 nodes work without injection. The change in parts may cause you problems if you expect to use more than 85 pixels. If you mix old IP68 and new IP68 in the same object (ie. a tree) you'll also likely see the differences visually as brighter next to slightly dimmer.
Note: I use "IP68" to refer to the RJ-approved TM1804IC strings from Ray Wu. These strings were improved with better epoxy and water-proofing to improve on the original IP66 rating.
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I agree it is much simpler to just use another SSC every 85 nodes whether the ones in the WIKI or these new design Technicolor nodes. Although the creator is working on an easy injection solution it might be worth looking at when he releases it. And of course RJ still has something up his sleeve that I am dying to find out what it is.
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I still haven't heard any one one test and solve the problem why?
Node, chip or what is the problem?
Why is the technicolor lights pulling more current?
I still it may be the settings on the chip on the technicolor strings are brighter.
I read the led bulb has a 1000 to 2000 brightness capability.
Setting this higher would account for the higher draw.
I'm not a knowledgeable as you guys are. But I think this could explain some things to me.
Like we can't plug another string to the RJ strings.
I know the normal led strings are 110v and have a drop down to take it down to a low voltage.
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Would anyone with some of these be willing to test to see how well hot glue adheres to them? IE - Hot gluing the rear of the node to a substrate such as wood or pipe. THANKS!
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I should be getting my 100 pixel technicolor strings soon. Since it's expected that 100pixels will pull 5.5A, when hooking them up for the first time I guess I would risk damaging the SSC or 4 port passive hub? Would it be suggested to go straight to power injection for my first test with the lights? (still deciding whether or not to cut my 12v+ line at the mid-way point.
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If they pull that much current, you WILL blow the fuse in the hub so yes, you need to go with power injection if you want all 100 Pixles on the same controller. Cutting the 12V line is up to you but there are a few things to consider in making that choice.
The first is are you using the same supply for both the feed and further injection. Computer supplies are tightly regulated and if you are using two different supplies, they may fight with each other causing excessive current draw , overheated power supplies, and blown fuses.
The second issue is if one of the supplies or connections to the supplies fails, then the entire load falls on the other supply, once again causing either a blown fuse or a possible overheated CAT5 cable and possible fire.
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Does the any one know what the technicolor strings safety voltage is?
I am using battery power.
Can you mix the WS2811 strings with the TM1804 strings?
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Does the any one know what the technicolor strings safety voltage is?
I am using battery power.
Can you mix the WS2811 strings with the TM1804 strings?
If you go back to the very first post in this thread. I think your questions will be answered.
Rick R.
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Read the first post and no it did not answer the questions.
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Read the first post and no it did answer the questions.
12v is the power for both WS2811 and TM1804.
You can connect both strings type end-to-end. You should even be able to use one pixel type to splice into a string using the other type.
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Thanks for the second question answered.
Now the first question.
The DLA strings have a safety voltage range on them up and down.
So I figure the Technicolor string would to.
Battery come in a 12.8 volts.
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Read the first post and no it did answer the questions.
12v is the power for both WS2811 and TM1804.
You can connect both strings type end-to-end. You should even be able to use one pixel type to splice into a string using the other type.
One thing to check out... is the color order the same?
I might find time tomorrow to try this out.
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Yes I can see how that can throw you off.
Does that have any thing to do with the voltage range of the strings?
So does that mean I could very down one line of strings the chip.
Like start with TM1804 and then go a WS2811 chip then back to a TM1804 chip.
The TM18014 use less power and I could put more on a string without more wiring.
But the WS281 chip has different variety of strings to choose from.
I have limited space.
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Not sure if you would want to mix chips. I read here that at least with strips the WS2811 lights 3 pixels per channel as opposed to TM1804 which allows 1 pixel per channel. Is it different for nodes?
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Well what I what to do is run a set of TM1804. Like 20 RJ strings then insert one WS2811 multi RGB led.
Then go back to the TM1804 RJ strings.
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Yes I can see how that can throw you off.
Does that have any thing to do with the voltage range of the strings?
So does that mean I could very down one line of strings the chip.
Like start with TM1804 and then go a WS2811 chip then back to a TM1804 chip.
The TM18014 use less power and I could put more on a string without more wiring.
But the WS281 chip has different variety of strings to choose from.
I have limited space.
Technicolor strings from Ray are the only WS2811 that have been tested with SSC (and therefore Zeus). Technicolor are strings, not flex, nor rigid... "from Ray" because he uses the chips with a compatible clock rate. There are reports that the FirePix from HolidayCoro -- while using the Technicolor design, are not compatible with SSC due to a different clock as implemented by the HolidayCoro manufacturer.
The TM1804 doesn't appear to have a significant power draw from WS2811 -- instead it is the LED itself that was recently introduced to the Technicolor strings (both chip types) that causes a higher power draw. The same LED is said to have been swapped into the old-style IP68 pixels now being shipped from ray, so they also draw more power compared to the older IP68 pixels manufactured last year.
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So what your saying is the RJ and Technicolor strings are now both drawing 0.67 pre node LED.
Is there someone that has the new RJ strings that have confirmed this?
Is there a way I can find out if I can use 12.8 volts with Technicolor strings?
Is there a test or specs that will tell me that?
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One thing to check out... is the color order the same?
I might find time tomorrow to try this out.
The color order for Technicolor strings is NOT the same.
Old IP66 TM1804 smart pixel string: RGB
Old IP68 TM1804 smart pixel string: RGB
New Ray Wu Technicolor TM1804 string: BGR
New Ray Wu Technicolor WS2811 string: BGR
Therefore, you should NOT mix Technicolor pixels with non-Technicolor pixels within the same string. The SSC (and Zeus) can be changed to support one color order, or another... but there is no way to have the color order set in a way that the pixels are consistent -- they simply are not consistent.
Note: this applies not only to patching a string with a pixel, but also appending strings, end-to-end. Use identical color order with each SSC/Zeus.
This info was originally included in the review... nothing has changed, only a reverification.
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I read that LSP and other sequencers can change the color order of each node. Is there any reason why I could not connect different types of lights (Technicolor, rgb TM1809 squares) together and have sequence software switch the order of one type or the other?
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Software mapping ought to work for you.
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One thing to check out... is the color order the same?
I might find time tomorrow to try this out.
The color order for Technicolor strings is NOT the same.
Old IP66 TM1804 smart pixel string: RGB
Old IP68 TM1804 smart pixel string: RGB
New Ray Wu Technicolor TM1804 string: BGR
New Ray Wu Technicolor WS2811 string: BGR
Therefore, you should NOT mix Technicolor pixels with non-Technicolor pixels within the same string. The SSC (and Zeus) can be changed to support one color order, or another... but there is no way to have the color order set in a way that the pixels are consistent -- they simply are not consistent.
Note: this applies not only to patching a string with a pixel, but also appending strings, end-to-end. Use identical color order with each SSC/Zeus.
This info was originally included in the review... nothing has changed, only a reverification.
So you can't use Technicolor strings with RJ DLA strings on the same string line. I got that.
But you can't not mix Zeus board with different string types?
And I think your says you can't mix different lines using SSC ether system?
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each string on the zeus should be separately controlled, and can be different string types.
each SSC also has its own configuration, so each SSC can have a different string type.
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OK. So the RGB color order can be change or controlled to work?
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Steve's correct. Each string on the Zeus is separately configurable, including the RGB color order because there is a separate PIC for each string. During beta testing of the Zeus I tested 5 different string types simultaneously; worked perfectly.
Denny
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Referring back to the very first post of this thread
Using a 50-count WS2811 string, and the SSCv3 in test mode, I observed 2.76 amps during a "full white"
How exactly are you measuring your string's amp draw? What meter are you using?
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Referring back to the very first post of this thread
Using a 50-count WS2811 string, and the SSCv3 in test mode, I observed 2.76 amps during a "full white"
How exactly are you measuring your string's amp draw? What meter are you using?
I used a test bench power supply to power up the SSCv3. I waited for the full white and read the meter at that time.
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Where are you taking your readings? Are you putting your meter leads on the pins of the connectors?
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the power supply provides a selectable voltage output and displays the voltage and current being used.
I connect 12v+ and ground to the output of the power supply to the power inputs of the SSCv3. I leave the pixelnet+ and pixelnet- unconnected, and let the SSCv3 test program do its magic.
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pic of ps and model please.. might be handy vs making a dummy cable up for my multi-meter to be in the middle, and I know I will touch a wire to the wrong place eventually!
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pic of ps and model please.. might be handy vs making a dummy cable up for my multi-meter to be in the middle, and I know I will touch a wire to the wrong place eventually!
When you touch the wrong place, be sure to have your video camera going so we can see the smoke effects. LOL. Seriously, I do not understand all this focus on power. With LEDs low power draw and the low price of power supplies I just do not spend any time thinking about this stuff. Too many other things to do.
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For me I'm using battery power. So current is very important. Less current more lights. ;D
For others that are doing there whole house in smart strings. Using technicolor strings will double your electricity bill.
It all depends on how many strings your using and how long your running your lights.
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I haven't looked up my model yet, but here is a bunch to select from:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/test-and-measurement/equipment-power-supplies-test-bench/2295022 (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/test-and-measurement/equipment-power-supplies-test-bench/2295022)
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Just got my technicolor lights in but will be waiting on my etherdongle coop to hopefully show up next week. Just to see them lit up, could I hook up 12v+ & ground from a female 3 conductor pigtail and plug into the technicolor string? Will the string light up with just power/ground connected and no data?
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I have tested short strings using a nine volt battery and the test firmware.
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Just got my technicolor lights in but will be waiting on my etherdongle coop to hopefully show up next week. Just to see them lit up, could I hook up 12v+ & ground from a female 3 conductor pigtail and plug into the technicolor string? Will the string light up with just power/ground connected and no data?
dumb strings just need power.
BUT smart strings require a controller. if you have power and a SSC with test firmware, you can get the Technicolor strings (or other smart pixels, flex, etc.) to light up.
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Just got my technicolor lights in but will be waiting on my etherdongle coop to hopefully show up next week. Just to see them lit up, could I hook up 12v+ & ground from a female 3 conductor pigtail and plug into the technicolor string? Will the string light up with just power/ground connected and no data?
dumb strings just need power.
BUT smart strings require a controller. if you have power and a SSC with test firmware, you can get the Technicolor strings (or other smart pixels, flex, etc.) to light up.
Thanks. I have the SSC V4s which don't appear to have test firmware out. Guess I'll have to wait until my etherdongle comes in....
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But then, if something else is not working, you really don't know what's good and what's not! I bought a pixelnet usb dongle just to move along and be able to test some stuff since there was no test firmware.
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How are you guys addressing the connectors being different pin layouts? I have all of my SSC V3's and V4's pre-done per the Wiki and it seems these strings are layed out differently. Would the simplest way be to redo the 3 pin connector from the SSC to match the string? Do the connectors even fit together? Thanks.
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the connectors are the same size and fit together... ray's pigtails and the technicolor.
I have made adapters to convert the old to the new pinout... that allows the SSC to work with the old or new strings (when the new have the adapter).
if you use the zeus board, its easy to just connect long pigtails directly to the board and readjust to the technicolor scheme.
You might choose to rewire your SSCs and old strings to use the new scheme.
I think your choice should be based on how much you already have built and your tolerance to change it.
I have gotten to using colored wire tires around the connectors to remind me which scheme is being uses... pink for power-only to the dumb string controllers... red for the old smart string... blue for the new smart string... green for RGB coming to dumb strings.
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Thanks for posting the pictures on the first page. It will be a great help.
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One more thing, maybe a stupid question. Can these be cut/customizable just like the wiki nodes?
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yep, they can be cut between nodes.
its not a dumb question... there are some strips that can be cut only at certain places because the chip drives multiple LEDs. In the case of strips, look at the "cut here" or scissors mark for where the cut is allowed.
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Just looked closer...Looks like the 12v and data are switched. Ground looks to be the same.
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OK, so I decided to cut off the connector and put the white one to go along with the ssc's I've already done. Something must be off, because it popped the little green fuse on the hub. Looking at the lights, the 12v should be on the side with the arrow, data middle and ground on the opposite side of the arrow. That is what is pictured on pg 1. Am I reading that right? I am leary now and don't want to damage anything. As of now I have, with the lights laying flat pointed away from me, arrow on the left side, left wire attached to yellow/green(12v), middle to brown(data) and right to blue(ground).
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My notes for the Technicolor are the wire closest to the arrow is negative, center is data, and farthest from the arrow is 12+.
This is opposite page one picture with the arrow on the pixels. The picture with the connectors and added labels looks correct.
I went with Ray's picture on the product page when I tested a while back: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/100nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel/701799_922162404.html
I initially tested with Rays TH2010x controller and then SSC V4 and they worked well.
Craig
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Ok, I bit the bullet and switched the 12v and ground and they work. Contradictory to the pics on page 1, the 12v is opposite the arrow, data middle and ground on the side of the arrow.
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Ok, I bit the bullet and switched the 12v and ground and they work. Contradictory to the pics on page 1, the 12v is opposite the arrow, data middle and ground on the side of the arrow.
Are you talking about the picture with labels on the wires being wrong, or the picture with the labels on the pins being wrong?
I've retested the pins, and I'm 100% that this picture is right.
The wires -- I haven't tested that, I took the info from another diagram.
I've updated the Wiki page with a list of the pigtail colors used for the Technicolor scheme. I've tested this as well. Note the table below the pictures: http://www.diylightanimation.com/wiki/index.php?title=3_Conductor#TECHNICOLOR_SCHEME (http://www.diylightanimation.com/wiki/index.php?title=3_Conductor#TECHNICOLOR_SCHEME)
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The pic with the wires with the arrows. I found the side of the node with the arrow to be ground, middle data, opposite side of the arrow on the pixel to be 12v.
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The second picture in the wiki is of the output connector, so for the input side the wiring would be the opposite. Could this be a source of confusion.
Also if you compare the first picture in the wiki with the picture on Rays site, the picture in the wiki shows the +12V GND wiring mirrored on the connectors (as it should be) but the picture on Rays site does not have the wiring mirrored - so it is wrong.
I am still none the wiser as to the correct wiring for these.
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It seems that the confusion is because the info in the wiki contradicts with the info from Ray's site. In both pictures the input end of the string (male) shows to have data as the pin directly underneath the 'notch' in the connector. The wiki shows Ground to be on the right and 12v+ on the left, Ray's picture has ground/12v+ as opposite.
From Steve/Wiki
(http://www.diylightanimation.com/wiki/images/9/95/Technicolor-pins.jpeg)
From Ray's Technicolor page http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/100nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel/701799_922162404.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/100nodes-DC12V-WS2811-LED-technicolor-pixel/701799_922162404.html)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2ed89xd.jpg)
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No, I understood that confusion. It was this picture. I found the 12v and ground to be opposite of this picture.
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what strings are those? I haven't even seen them on Ray's site.
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No, I understood that confusion. It was this picture. I found the 12v and ground to be opposite of this picture.
I concur, the picture with the yellow arrow is wrong. The arrow being the arrow molded on the Technicolor pixel is adjacent to the ground wire. Far side wire from the molded arrow is the 12V side.
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No, I understood that confusion. It was this picture. I found the 12v and ground to be opposite of this picture.
I concur, the picture with the yellow arrow is wrong. The arrow being the arrow molded on the Technicolor pixel is adjacent to the ground wire. Far side wire from the molded arrow is the 12V side.
I will fix that picture -- I did not cut apart a working string to test the wiring.
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Compare these two pictures:
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3315/g8eo.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2ed89xd.jpg)
BOTH pictures show the wiring of the output (female) connector with the ground to the left. This was the source of my confusion. It is misleading to assume "left" side -- only the order going into (or out of) the LED fixture is important.
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No, I understood that confusion. It was this picture. I found the 12v and ground to be opposite of this picture.
I concur, the picture with the yellow arrow is wrong. The arrow being the arrow molded on the Technicolor pixel is adjacent to the ground wire. Far side wire from the molded arrow is the 12V side.
I will fix that picture -- I did not cut apart a working string to test the wiring.
Steve, can you look at the photo and see if the molded arrow is under the yellow arrow?
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No, I understood that confusion. It was this picture. I found the 12v and ground to be opposite of this picture.
I concur, the picture with the yellow arrow is wrong. The arrow being the arrow molded on the Technicolor pixel is adjacent to the ground wire. Far side wire from the molded arrow is the 12V side.
I will fix that picture -- I did not cut apart a working string to test the wiring.
Steve, can you look at the photo and see if the molded arrow is under the yellow arrow?
Yes, the molded arrow is directly under the yellow arrow, pointing in the same direction, and on the same side of the pixel.
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Got my sidewalk Technicolors up and running. Thanks for all the help from this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTirdWxNW5s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTirdWxNW5s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVrlHCdKnSw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVrlHCdKnSw)
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Great job!!! Thanks for sharing. Definitely want to do them someday but haven't figured out the best way to go about it. Willing to share any tips? >.d9
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That's cool! Good job.
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Willing to share any tips?
In the video I'm using just a 4port hub, using 1 SSC v4 for each strand. I am power injecting each strand using the following method I drew up. (http://i43.tinypic.com/14vigw6.jpg)
I mounted each of the sidewalk nodes on PVC which you can see in another thread that I started http://diylightanimation.com/index.php?topic=12824.msg167834#msg167834 (http://diylightanimation.com/index.php?topic=12824.msg167834#msg167834).
I have another strand of lights that will be on my roofline but can't get them up right now because of the ice.
The Technicolors look and work great SO FAR......I haven't had the issues that others have had with them, but I'm not holding my breath.
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I love your drawing. It shows how power injection works quite simply.
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I love your drawing. It shows how power injection works quite simply.
Thanks. For the record I am doing it like 'Option 1' from the drawing. Since both of my strings end at the end of my sidewalk I am just having to run one cable to my 'power block' that is being fed from my power supply (which is located next to my etherdongle by my computer). I am using a 18/3 cable and using 2 of the conductors as 12v+ power to each strand and the last conductor as a shared common.