DiyLightAnimation

Fun => The Porch => Topic started by: mmciver on December 21, 2016,

Title: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: mmciver on December 21, 2016,
First of all, Merry Christmas to everyone!

I just needed to vent a little bit on a topic that nobody in my family understands, so I am reaching out to a like minded group for some sympathy:)

I have run animated lights for about 10 years now.  I started with D-Light Controllers and their Spectrum software, moved to another piece of software when Spectrum was discontinued and then moved to LSP.
I moved from D-light to Lynx products and fell in love, i converted my d-lights to DMX, added wireless, etc. and had good luck with almost everything, with the exception of the LSP Scheduler:)

Then 3 or 4 years ago I decided to branch off into RGB pixels and then my frustration level climbed to a new peak.  Initially I had a Etherdongle build not go well, in fact I still need to troubleshoot that one!  I built 2 others with no problems.
I built 2 passive hubs, 2 smarthubs, many SSC2's that I had to go back to and make SSC3's out of.  All of that seemed to work!
I then bought pixels and started testing and at first was having a 50% failure rate.  Once that dropped down to a reasonable level I built a 3D Merry Christmas Sign, A star, and 5 RGB arches. 

This year I put my display up and was going to mess with the RGB pixels again... It seems like everytime I start working with them I get frustrated and put them away for a while.  well this year I really wanted to get them functioning, so.....
I hook my Merry Sign up to an SSC in test mode and apply power.  I get flicker on green and white at the end of the string.....:(  More power injection probably.
I find that on my Christmas sign, all the pixels I ordered aren't the same order, some are rgb and some are bgr:(  more work.  I decided that my old PC power supplies, while they should provide enough power...  I want them out of the loop so I just ordered new PS's from Holiday Coro.

It seems like everytime I try to do anything with the RGB equipment I run into problems.  What am I doing wrong?  Everyone who has them swears by them and they look great in the Displays!  I really want to add my pieces, but I keep getting stymied!  And that is before I even try to add them to a sequence:)

That starts a whole other problem?  stick with LSP 2.8 or just move everything to Xlights!

The one thing that I will say, is that I love my Falcon Pi Player running on my Raspberry PI2!!!

Any words of encouragement, understanding, or help?

I hope this gives you a little chuckle, but i hope it ultimately helps me:)

Mike.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: royce on December 21, 2016,
Sorry to hear about all your problems. I'm like you this year If it can go wrong it will. Hang in there it will turn around.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: jnealand on December 22, 2016,
If you are still using pixels from 3 years ago, try buying some new pixels.  Quality is much better these days.  They are also 1/2 the price from when Smart strings first came out.  I only buy WS2811s now, they are about a nickel cheaper per node than the TM1804s.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: mmciver on December 22, 2016,
 :)
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: caretaker on December 22, 2016,
While I started out with pixels using SSC's and an active hub fed from an etherdongle, starting over I am moving to Falcon hardware (most likely a F16v3 ) as they are easier to use and have more features.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: tbone321 on December 22, 2016,
How exactly are they easier to use?  The EDT is just plug and play with no config at all, it can't get any more simple than that.  The hub is the same, no configuration other than setting it to the universe you want it to be on.  I do prefer the Falcon firmware on the DLA SCC's and the Falcon uSC's are much smaller and allow for a larger length between the uSC and the first node but I doubt that I would sell the SSC for that when the Falcon firmware gives them the same programming features.  If I were to need to replace or buy new equipment then I would go with Falcon because it is good stuff and sadly, I believe that much of the DLA equipment has come to an end but I would not spend the money to simply change over because the DLA stuff just works and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: jnealand on December 23, 2016,
Easier is different for many folks, but problems with DLA stuff is well known.  Look at all the folks who have trouble making a Zeus work.  Look at the ability of the Falcon pixelnet controller programmer to save the configurations and bring them back up.  Look at the ability of the F16v2 to lower brightness on a string via the controller.  Look at the functionality of virtual strings.  I'm sure there is more.  That does not diminish the functionality of the DLA smart string stuff,  I still use some of it, but as my display has grown I have purchased Falcon stuff and love it just as much as I loved the Lynx product line.  Still wish RJ was active in developing new stuff.  He was ahead of his time in many ways.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: tbone321 on December 23, 2016,
I think that we have a difference in definitions.  Sure, the Falcon equipment is more advanced because as you have said, there hasn't been much in the way of development anymore and I agree, I wish that RJ was around more and he was way ahead of the curve on the development of the lighting equipment that we use.  The point is that all of the added features and abilities of some of the Falcon equipment in many ways makes it more difficult to use because you have to understand the configuration of each device to make them work.  The EDT is simply plug and play.  You plug it in and it works, no need to configure it at all.  Pretty much the same with the hub, just set the PixelNet universe you want it to work with and connect the PS and your done.  You can load the Falcon firmware onto any of the DLA SSC's and get all of the features of the Falcon uSC and its programmer so while there a matter of easier for either one, there is little point is replacing one for the other.  I agree that the Zeus has some issues and the F16v2 is superior in just about every way and has many more features but it is also MUCH more expensive.  If I need to add equipment or replace items I would buy Falcon but IMHO, simply replacing DLA with Falcon for the sake of replacement is just a waste of money that I can use on new props for my display.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: zwiller on December 24, 2016,
First off.  Pixels are high risk, high reward.  No way around it.  Sometimes, there is no reward.  2013...  I spent and entire year preparing, hung lights and all, sequenced my heart out but never made it live...  No one to blame but myself.  That was rough, so I feel your pain.  You WILL endure.  Find out some common faults.  For me it was power injection/voltage drop combined with SSC on ground prop failures.  My advice.  Do not load up the lights on a controller.  Keep every prop separate on the controllers.  Keep open ports on controllers.  Keep distances to first node short.  Test and then test again way before the season. 

DLA has it's place.  My SSC's are still in use and have retained programming from 2012!  That's impressive.  I hope RJ considers building on his legacy and that to me is taking totally newbies to electronics like me and getting the comfortable enough to solder and build their own controllers.  RJ made DIY accessible to anyone.  Back in the day, the “DIY” community was really anti-noob if you ask me.  They practically spoke in code so that only EE could understand.  Some are still this way.  RJ took a radical departure to make it available to all.  I am grateful.  I learned SO MUCH here and I think many would still enjoy their first sweet smell of solder.  Darn right, he was way ahead of his time. 

I’d like to see him back into it or maybe someone else can.  I’d like to see the Aether III.  4x10w 12vRGB led with 2811/PN protocol with a 1 cable hookup.  I could go on… 
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: loveroflife96 on December 25, 2016,
All the previous posts are very relevant.  But, I'd say for the first year, non technical guru, DLA is still the best.  The people here support each other like no other.  As you grow in your show, you find you need another challenge or maybe a feature that isn't present on the entry level controller.  I say entry level because RJ was the first one to bring RGB to the DIY for a decent price.  And it still works, over 4 years later.  Others have come along, duplicated, improved, etc.  But the fact remains that RJ was ahead of the pace for this, and it is still a good solid platform to learn from.

As for the OP, take your time.  Start early in the year.  When you run into problems, ask for help.  We've all been there.  As you gain confidence in fixing each problem, you learn to troubleshoot and it makes it easier in the future.  You also make some great friendships along the way that help with no one else understanding your frustrations.  I've had two people stop by extremely interested in doing their own shows.  One after I showed them the work involved wasn't interested at all.  The other was still interested so I gave them a passive hub and a few SSCs and a couple short pixel strings to play with.  They're hooked now.  When it comes together, it will be the best decision you've made to go to pixels.  But it also comes with it's headaches and learning curve.

Duane
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: taybrynn on December 27, 2016,
1) Switch to xlights
2) Use Falcon firmware and uSC SSC Programmer 1.0.12 ... instead of the DLA SS firmware and SS utility.
    - you can give each of your SSC you program a useful name (i.e. SSC v4 Arch1)
    - you must remove the SSC program jumper, and leave it off ... 
    - compatible with both SSC v1,v2,v3 .... all modded to v3 ... AND ssc v4.  Two flavors of the falcon ssc firmware, one for v3 mods and one for v4.
    - I'd use this falcon firmware and programmer on the zeus also (treat at 16 ssc v4(s))
     -Note: check the "program all SSC on hub" for the FIRST TIME programming of each SSC [ I do only 1 at a time on a hub ]
               after the initial programming, you can reprogram a SSC by providing the old starting ch# and the new starting ch# ... and uncheck the program all on hub checkbox.
               I haven't done it yet, but programming 'in the field' SSC(s) is possible with Falcon programmer
3) I'd stay with one type of RGB nodes ... for me it's been the TM1804 SS nodes ... they seem to use 1/2 the power of WS2811 ... so
    I'm not convinced the ws2811 nickel per node cost savings is real, esp. if I require more power supplies to run them.  Most seem to run
    then at 30% off falcon boards, so maybe thats the workaround?
4) Highly recommend using Falcon boards over zeus if you can ... best for megatrees, matrixes and display items within 25' using 3 core cables ... (40-50' with cat5 cables).
5) I still love the DLA active hub(s) and used with SSC(s) ... esp. the V4(s) ... works great with Falcon F16v2 and covers the larger
    distances really well.   
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: smeighan on December 28, 2016,

This year i switched entirely to Falcon controllers. I still have 60 SSC's, 3 active hubs, 3 passive hubs.
DLA vs Falcon hardware? Price is about the same for megatree.
$200 for falcon f16 to drive 16 strings. DLA active hub around $100 then 16 SSC's $10 each.
The biggest reason i switched is i can configure all channels, rgb order from the web page. i do not need to get on roof and bring down an SSC. I did use daves replacement firmware the last few years so i could program channel from the ground, just be careful to unplug the other lights.

I also use the virtual string capability of having 1804 and 2811 lights all on same port.

RJ left a few years ago and doesnt appear to be developing anything new. I started with DLA in 2012, went hybrid DLA,falcon last two years, now solely falcon controllers.
Dave is actively developing and supporting.
DLA stuff works, if you use it and you are not growing (How do you do 80,000 channels with DLA hardware?)  stay with what works for you.
 Some users now are over 200,000 channels using xlights and falcon.

I have a conductor, I never could get it to work reliably. I have been using the FPP to run my shows since 2013. I can run my show from my phone.

tbone321 you must like at least the FPP as I see you have made 1216 posts over on falconchristmas.com since feb 2016 and 99 posts here on DLA since Feb 2016.

I think the point is after RJ left this site has become a shadow of its former self. Since Jan 2015 RJ has made 33 posts, 1 of those were in 2016. He used to do 33 posts in a single day back in 2012, 2013.

Understand, I liked DLA products. They work, they do work as advertised. It is like LSP, great sequencer a few years ago, no new releases for the last few years.

If anyone is interested in SSC's mostly ver 2 with dave pitts firmware and a pile of other DLA stuff, pm me. I will sell it for half of purchase price.



Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: tbone321 on December 28, 2016,
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tbone321 you must like at least the FPP as I see you have made 1216 posts over on falconchristmas.com since feb 2016 and 99 posts here on DLA since Feb 2016.


LOL, where did I ever say that I didn't like Falcon.  I think that Dave and the Captain have some great products in both hardware and software and I also said that if and when I need to either replace items or expand my display, that is where I will be getting the new equipment both due to availability and development.  What I did say was I saw no need to replace functioning DLA equipment with Falcon for just the sake of replacement and doing so was a true waste of money that could be used for other things.  As for the posting math, lets keep in mind that I seldom originate threads either here or there and there is sadly much less activity here so the amount of posts answering questions is also much less.  If Falcon has any weak point, it is in the documentation and it's WIKI.  It looks like nobody has touched either in years.  Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the great job that was done here.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: smeighan on December 29, 2016,
i agree that the falcon boards could use a decent manual, dave is looking to get one made.
I also agree the dla boards work, they just are a little dated with no updates to them in 3 years.

Let me phrase it better, if someone has no hardware and they are starting should they go with DLA Pixelnet or with falcon,alphapix, pixlite?
I tell new people to go with the falcon hardware, it has way more capabilities. For people already using DLA hardware and it works, stay with what has been proven reliable over many years/.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: duane.mosley on December 29, 2016,
 I WOULD NOT BE WHERE I AM TODAY WITHOUT RJ'S ''simple is better" motto. every person commenting on this thread has helped me more than once since i joined in 2011, first show in 2012.  like T-bone said, it wasn't broke, so i didn't fix it.   i did however purchase an f16v2 this year and was very impressed with it's ability.  i used the falcon to control my 4 new elements that were all 235 nodes or more and it was great. i have 20 arches, 400 nodes, all running off one falcon output with 2 power injection points. i am running 4 ports, all on different universes. it was nice also having a pi3 with FPP run my show flawlessly since day one. never was able to get my conductor to work 100%. it would work, but was out of sync on a few songs.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: lrhorer on January 01, 2017,
There is no question the Falcon equipment has generally greater capabilities, but the question is, "Are those capabilities necessary?"  There is no general answer to the question.  It depends on each person's needs and budget.  There is also a time element.  Meeting the immediate needs may not allow one much room for expansion in the future.  That might seem to suggest one should always go the Falcon route, but it is simply not the case.  First of all, most of us have to live within a fairly strict budget, and spending more on each piece of equipment means buying less equipment.  There is also always a problem with the crystal ball.  One can spend more money on more capable equipment with an eye toward future expansion, only to find when the future arrives, something better has come along and one needs to spend even more to upgrade to the latest and greatest.  If money is no object, then to be sure go with the most capable platform, which in this case means Falcon.  For those of us who live in the real world, a little monetary planning will get us a better bang for the buck, and for myself, at least, that meant Lynx / Zeus for this passed year, and probably this coming year, as well.  For those of us with more extensive shows, Falcon - at least in part - may be a better choice, especially if buying everything new up-front.

I used a very important word in that last paragraph: planning.  In order to eliminate the frustrations you (and others) are having, I submit planning is the key.  There is a better word for it, and many here may not like it, but again, it is in my opinion absolutely essential.  The word is, "Engineering".  As a professional engineer, laying out the engineering for a project is second nature to me, and consequently I have suffered only one of your frustrations - pixel failures.  No amount of engineering can eliminate hardware failure, but keeping extra equipment on-hand will help lessen the blow.  Not only that, but honestly, pixel failures are far easier to fix than dumb string failures.  Most dumb strings are wired serially, and finding the failed element in a 50 or 75 node serial light string is a monumental PITA.  With a failed pixel, I don't even bother to troubleshoot.  I just replace the last working pixel and the first non-working pixel with a new pair of pixels.  At under $0.25 per pixel, it definitely is not worth my time to try to figure out which one is bad, and it takes no more effort to replace two pixels than one.

Honestly, by far the biggest frustration I have had this year is finding the time to get the hardware built.  Indeed, I am still working on it.   :(

My show includes 8 roof-mounted star-bursts (pixel based) and 48 candy canes (dumb light strips).  I only have 3 of the 8 starbursts finished, and I have not even started to wire out the candy canes.  I did have to spend a fair amount of time (and money!) re-working several of the hardware prototypes, including the megatree, to get things to work properly.  I am working on version 5 of the megatree right now, in fact, which will allow the tree to be assembled more easily next year.  One might suggest if I were a bit less picky - or perhaps a better engineer - I wouldn't have to make so many revisions or spend as much time working on the display, but there you have it.

I digress.  'Back to engineering the electronics.  One does not have to be a professional engineer to create these light displays, although without question it does help.  One should, however, have a solid basic understanding of the electrical parameters of the equipment and how to design the power and data topology of the show.  IMO, one MUST have a thorough understanding of Ohm's law and how to calculate voltage drop in the pixel strings and the lines that feed them.  One MUST account for the total power needed by each power segment and by each fused section of the show - and don't be stingy with either one.  One needs to be aware of the ampacity limits of each cable and take care not to exceed the ampacity of the wire in question... well, OK, not by much.  I think we all sometimes stretch the NEC codes when it comes to how much current we send down the wires, and we all pretty much blast all Bellcore specs right to Hell.  Just don't let the wires get hot to the touch.

Of course one must absolutely understand the addressing schemes, and I think this is one place a lot of us get into trouble.  I find it very easy myself to forget each pixel uses three DMX / Pixelnet channels when calculating my data realms.  I have to keep reminding myself 128 pixels use 384 channels.  It is extremely easy to accidentally overflow the current universe when planning for the display segments.  It is inevitable to do so if one has not done the proper design planning.

Finally, one really needs to understand a little bit about data transmission and the limits of 1-wire data transport vs. 2 wire.  The one issue I did encounter was trying to push the limits of pixel transmission a bit too far, but then it wasn't really frustrating when I had problems, because having engineered the displays, I knew I was pushing it, and was proceeding on hope, rather than expectations.  I also knew the fix.  My only regret is I had to spend more money to fix the issue, but c'est la vie.

Anyway, if one wishes to reduce one's frustration level, then one should go hit the books to learn a little basic electronics if necessary, and then come here to ask questions before planning next year's show.  Then the only frustrations will be having the displays droop or even fall down when they weren't properly mounted, and explaining to the wife why one is spending so much money on all these lights.  With the former, one or more of us here can no doubt help.  For the latter, you're on your own.    ;D
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: taybrynn on January 02, 2017,
I would second the thanks to RJ for all he taught me and making this stuff simple enough for me to even approach it, let alone thrive with it. 

I am a firm believer that so much of what RJ did (and designed into smart strings) ... is STILL, often a good best practice many would be wise to follow, even if they don't have to.

Sure, things like the Falcon and injection open up a lot of new possibilities ... more for less $$ potentially ... but also creates some new pitfalls for the newbies to fall into ...

I have converted a lot of things into Falcon and its working great ... however, I'm also keeping some DLA around and trying not to push the limits any more than I have to, in the name of reliability, simplicity (to install, manage, maintain) ... and enjoying the show more than having it consume me with tech support issues to resolve.
Title: Re: Pixels and just looking to vent a little :)
Post by: mmciver on January 04, 2017,
Wow!

I really didn't expect the falcon vs. DLA discussion to fire up.
I am running the FPP to run my show and love it!  I have had no problems, other than my lack of documentation and poor memory from year to year:), but compared to LSP scheduler it has been a dream.  It just works.
Having said that I have not delved into the land of Falcon hardware other than wanting to look at the signal amplifier from falcon.  Also the DLA hardware has all the features that I am looking for at this point.

Let me be clear, I love my DMX Dongles, Etherdongle, Expresses, and wireless.  RJ is truly a great help in the DIY market and I feel a strong loyalty to him.  I have upwards of 14 or 15 Express boxes and love them.  I haven't even looked at the Minleon version due to the fact that I like the wireless capabilities of the DLA version.  RJ has done a phenomenal job.  Thank you, thank you, thank you RJ!

I started into pixels about 3 or 4 years ago, the time flies as you get older :)
I built 3 etherdongles, 2 work and I still have to figure out why the third one does not.  I have 2 Smart hubs, one in production and one on the bench for test.  They both seem to work fine for me other than an occasional fried fuse due to stupidity on my part!

But the whole pixel thing has been very frustrating from the start.  My first batch of pixels seemed to have about a 50% failure rate:(  That was enough for me to put them away for a year.

Then I built a Merry Christmas sign with rectangle pixels, I built some candles out of coro that have the rectangle pixels, and I still want to build some candy canes with rectangle pixels.  If I use an SSC moded to V3 with test firmware on it, I seem to have gotten past the bad pixel issues.

I also built 5 RGB arches using tubing and pixel strips that are 30 pixels per meter.  Those seem to test well.

How that I am trying again to get things working for sequencing I am running into other problems.  Flicker in some cases, but according to the documentation I should be way below the max number of pixels per string, so voltage drop should not be an issues, but......

So most of my frustration at this point is limited to the SSC's and the Zeus hubs.  I have had multiple frustrations getting either to work and work consistently.

It looks like I might need to flash them with Falcon firmware and based on the discussion here it looks like I might need to download some new software to set the start channels properly.

Is that the consensus?  I am not bashing the DLA hardware, I really like it, but I would like to have some pixel elements in next years show.

Like most of you i have motivation to work on it this time of year and with the display still up, I can do some testing to make sure things are mostly ready for next year.

I have been part of this group for probably 4 or 5 years.  I started out with D-light controllers and have flashed all of them to DMX which was a fun chore!

I am fairly capable, but not an EE. But this pixel thing is kicking my butt!

I hope RJ finds the time to resurface and help us amateurs, but in the meantime I have a boatload of hardware that I really want to get working.

I will try the suggestions of this great group, I will ask for help and know that I will get great help from all of you, but this pixel thing is not for the weak of heart!

I hope everyone had a great show this year and had at least one child come up to you and thank you for the lights.  That is what drives me from year to year!

Happy New Year!

Mike.