anyone thinking of doing a grinch parts COOP?

[gizmo]

I just ordered 2 grinch PBCs and now need parts. I was wondering if anyone is about to start a grinch COOP.

scott

[RJ]

Scott,

       I kinda stop supporting the Grinch a few years ago for a couple of reasons. One was because it was being modified outside of what it was suppose to be and the second and more important reason was by offering it we kept causing new users who do not have the full picture to believe that was the correct way to get started. Time and Time again people would PM me and ask about adding dimming to it and such. The fact is very few people do not build On/Off controllers and them immediately want dimming. Then they try to dim the Grinch using less the optimum methods and end up spending more on the dimming Grinch than a full blown high end dimmer cost. then they never are happy and end up building the regular dimmers which ends up costing them in the long run so much more than to start out building a dimmer. The dimmers are cheap enough and easy enough to build now to really not need a "Entry level system"

Now for what you are likely after there are some good uses for the Grinch other than being a first board to build.

RJ

[gizmo]

hi RJ

this is not my first build, i have built a grinch and 16 SSRs from wjohn and also have built a dongle and FS with 32 SSR4s from you. However i had lots of problems with VIXEN from unziping it to getting more than one seq to run back to back.

Unfortunly i sold all my DIY stuff. Went to LOR which a local fellow light nut is helping me with the computer end of things.
Now all i want to do is run a simple chasing seq with no music. Something kinda like the "toy factory" (if you know what im talking about) execpt with 48 channels.

if there is a better board for my needs please let me know!

Maybe i should start by asking if anyone has an old GRINCH to sell.

scott

[awhaley]

The grinch can still be very useful if you're certain you don't need dimming on those channels.   I'm not sure if you'll find enough interest for a parts coop, but the parts are pretty cheap as a one off, especially since you've already got the PCBs. 


RJ, if you read back by this...  In your opinion, would there be anything 'wrong' or 'less than desirable' even about building a grinch with an onboard dimming controller?  The Ren-C problems I always hear about involve the fact that it uses high speed TTL level communication, but on a properly designed PCB instead of using really short wires, is it a stable enough system to be worth messing with?  I know there's a working DMX dimming front end for the grinch too...  what's the down side to using an onboard microcontroller to decode DMX and spit out grinch serial fast enough to give  levels of dimming?   If we want 64 channels at 256 levels of dimming, that looks like roughly 16Kbps of data that needs to be sent?  Of course it has to be bitbanged to comply with the allegro format and to synch with the clock and latch lines, but that doesn't sound like it's really asking that much from the PIC?  I guess this is actually pretty similar to how the Freestyle does work, isn't it?  By the time I put a PIC, the support circuits for the PIC, the latches, and the ZC circuit on the board, I've redesigned half of a freestyle, haven't I? 

But if it were optional, and I know there's a risk of confusion that comes with options...  what if a grinch board were designed with the spot for the PIC, the rs-485 chip, decoupling caps and the handful of resistors needed already on board, so you could add the components and move the jumpers to convert the grinch from parallel port input to dmx non-dimming mode... 

ZC could be generated by the 'glitter tube method and brought onboard with a two pin header.  The PIC would start dimming mode if it detected ZC pulses, and remain in Non-Dim mode if it didn't...


It's a LOT of options, and so might confuse some new folks, but as long as people are going to keep building grinches and then wishing they'd built dimmers, a clear upgrade path might be cool?  Build the grinch as per normal, on a slightly bigger board, then add a PIC and a few discrete components if you want to lose the parallel port, then build a really simple ZC module if you want to make it dim...  If it were really well documented in the wiki, it might work. 

In the end, I agree with what you said in your reply to the OP, that building a dimmer isn't that much more difficult or more expensive than building the grinch and it's usually worth the difference, and we all keep saying that every time it comes up, but just a few months ago I started with a grinch too, even though I'd read the posts that said the dimmers weren't that much harder... because they LOOK harder and the parts list is longer... and I think people will always want to get their feet wet on a friendlier looking controller...   Only after you build your first controller do you have the confidence to say "Yeah, I can build these things!"

And I didn't get to answer you in the other thread before it got locked, so I'll say here... yes I DO find a lot I want to type when I get going about this stuff.  I've come to it pretty recently and jumped in with both feet and I love it.   I work in theatre and use dimmers all day long, but they've always been magic black boxes, so it's been extra exciting getting inside them and figuring out how they work!  And I really love telling stories and evoking emotions through lighting, so stretching that to the front yard for christmas this year was a real treat. 

Art

[RJ]

As I said in the pervious post I decided to take to extra choice out of the equation and so far almost everyone that I told to build the real dimmers has PM or posted back later and thanked me for the advice. And the ones that did the Grinch and then later did a dimmer PM or posted to say they should have took my advice.

So why support another device that cause people to wish they had not gone that route.
Dimming the grinch is even more complicated than using a real dimmer so why?

In our case this is not a choice.
In fact we have talked about locking the grinch section since I do not handle Grinch PCB's

RJ

[knguyen916]

i can voutch for that,  I can even post you the e-mail RJ sent me in regards to him telling me to start off with dimmers. In my case however, I would rather mess up a grinch board then a dimmer board as my first time soldering. In the end, my grinch were never used. But i might be looking into making some big signs with them with leos scoreboard design.

As I said in the pervious post I decided to take to extra choice out of the equation and so far almost everyone that I told to build the real dimmers has PM or posted back later and thanked me for the advice. And the ones that did the Grinch and then later did a dimmer PM or posted to say they should have took my advice.

So why support another device that cause people to wish they had not gone that route.
Dimming the grinch is even more complicated than using a real dimmer so why?

In our case this is not a choice.
In fact we have talked about locking the grinch section since I do not handle Grinch PCB's

RJ

[WWNF911]

I can see RJ's point. The Grinch had its time, was an extremely simple to build controller and as such became extremely popular. I know it's hard to let go Scott but what RJ is saying is that its a dead product in that its no longer supported. In the medical industry we call these products End of Life. That simply means they are no longer supported. It makes it harder and harder to find parts etc. There are always the stuborn few who will use that old medical product until it dies. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realize it's no longer supported. Eventually, they realize  that because of this it becomes more and more expensive as they are consistently having to find new ways to find parts refurb and or otherwise. When all along they should know that the newer products, although not quite as simple to build, work better and have all the improvements that come along with a "New" product.
The fact of the matter is people resist change. Right or wrong, it just happens. I know when I was an instructor in the Navy, the standard was WordStar. Yikes! Remember that? When the Navy standard changed to WordPerfect I was floored. You mean I have to re-learn how to do everything?       Not hard, just different. Not that I couldn't do it, just didn't want to. (people resist change)  Hasn't happened yet, but eventually you won't be able to find chips for the Grinch any longer and that is I suspect when you'll stop hearing about the Grinch RJ. 

Until then, I suspect you'll always have some diehard fans who'll want to fix up that ole Grinch just cause they can. You know,  every year they have an event in Reno called Hot August Nights. I go every year to check out the cars that have been lovingly brought back to life. Some owners are extremely creative in finding ways to get around parts that are no longer available. 

Leon

[awhaley]

Given the technology market's love of LEDs, I don't think LED driver chips like those on the grinch are going out of style anytime soon, but I do agree that the lack of support is a real reason not to build a potentially finicky device.  There's still quite a lot of community support available for the grinch, even if RJ chooses to lock the grinch thread here... not to mention that any "my grinch doesn't work" question has probably already been answered several times in the forum already....

But I think the attraction to the grinch is still that it looks easy, more than a love for it...  I think the people who have been doing this for a few years that dust off their grinch every year do it because it does what it needs to for them and they haven't needed to upgrade yet...

The new folks build it because it's not scary...  it's an easy home-etch or stripboard project if you want to go that route.. but mostly it looks easy and the forum posts tell you (perhaps falsely) that it's the easiest way to start...  I built one as my first controller because I had never built a digital project of this scale before, and I thought it gave me the highest probability for success and the least cost risked if I failed.  And I think we'll keep getting questions about it as long as it is the easiest looking and shortest BOM controller out there.

Art

[rrowan]

Hi Art

Guess I will have to disagree with you.

Last January (ie: 2008) I ordered a Grinch and built one. At that time the chips for it were hard to get and in fact the only way I was able to get them was to request for free samples. Now that might have change? Like I said the Grinch was built and tested and I planned to use it. Now at this time the ONLY dmx dongle out there was the Enttec pro which was $160 bucks. No way was I going to spend that much for a dongle. Now RJ comes out with a dongle and I got one and built it for less then $60 bucks. Cool! At that point there was NO reason for me to use the Grinch. It has been sitting in the closet ever since. The ease of expansion of the Lynx series hardware is SO much nicer. No need to run low voltage, No need to worry about how far or close the controller is to the computer. No concern about having a ton of serial or parallel ports in my computer (ie: up to 512 channels off of one usb port). No central point that I need to run tons of electric wires out to each set of lights. I have one cat5 cable leaving my computer that goes outside and connects into a splitter then other cat5 cables run around the yard. Now the power has to go from the house to the controller and then a short (6 foot) extension cord to the string of lights. No need for thousands of feet of power cables. Why play with older tech when the newer one is so much easier to use and pretty much in the same price range? People say I only want to turn the lights on or off. No problem, any of the controllers here can do that.  Once you get pass the "scary" first built it will become childs play to build any other hardware.

Just a few thoughts.

** The above thoughts are only my own and no way relate to the fact that I am a mod on DLA **
Rick R.

[awhaley]

Rick, I agree with you completely.   I ALSO find my grinch obsolete, and advise others to build new designs for the same reasons you list- power supply, and decentralized control, and more creative versatility with a dimmer.

My point was just, as you point out also, the first build is scary!  I DO believe that anyone who can build a grinch can build a dimmer as well, but convincing THEM of that is hard to do...  the dimmer boards LOOK scarier and more difficult to assemble...  The truth of the matter is of course that if you can solder a component, then it doesn't matter if you have 80 connections to make or 120, or 15 components or a thousand really...  if you have the skills for a simple controller, with another hour's work your skills will let you build the more complex ones...

I wasn't saying that everyone should be building Grinches, but  that people do choose to build them for certain reasons, and I think we should admit what those reasons are and that some of the reasons are valid, even if the conclusion is not.  I don't think the grinch is the best controller for new folks, but they will continue to ask about it and to build it.  The way to put the grinch to bed for good is to build a better controller that LOOKS as simple to build as the grinch... or to modify the grinch pcb to provide an easy and reliable upgrade path once it's built...  Or to try to erase all mention of it from the web...    Then they wouldn't know they had an option! 


As for parts availability, I know it's hard to find the Allegro chips in small quantites from distributors, but the MBI chips are always available.  Someone mentioned a third manufacturer that made chips that 'should' be compatible, but I don't recall what the chip was... 

Art