Review of Technicolor Strings

[Steve Gase]

So are you saying the RJs 12V strings now coming out will draw more amps?

that seems to be the message... don't expect anything coming from china (ray wu) to be constant unless they come from the same order... make that the same carton.


wire colors change, power draw changes, ... 

[RJ]

Wire size, at least in the case of 100 count string, is irrelevant.  The drop is due to loss at each pixel from the resistors.  In the 12V strings we are actually wasting more power than we are using for the LED itself, that's why you see the 5V strings.  Now, the 12V gives us something more people are familiar working with and allows for longer runs than the 5V with less wasted power.  It's a trade off.  The strings are being made now with 20 gauge high strand, which is supposed to compare to an 18 gauge.  It was important to get the UV rated wire and the UV rated 18 gauge is too large to fit the solder pads on the PCB and the molds would have to be again modified to accept it.  In the overall design, we decided it was easier to limit them to 50 count and 100 count with injection at both ends.  The V2 strings will most likely be 85 count strings.  There is also an easier injection solution being developed that should make injection along the line much simpler and more plug and play.

I am sorry but this incorrect. The wire is what causes the voltage drop. The resistors are not in series with the 12 volt feed. 12v passes directly though each node to the next. If this was not true only the first node would work correct and the resistors on the nod would need to be the size of hot dog to handle the wattage of power being dissipated.

I normally do not chime in but when I see incorrect information that may confuse members I want to make sure we clear it up. The only voltage drop in the string from the supply 12v is loss do to wire, pcb traces on each node from in to out on power and the solder joints on the pcb attaching the power wire.

RJ

[sittinguphigh]

Excuse me for not understanding. But what is the difference in wiring of the  RJ's 12V strings and the Technicolor strings that drops the voltage or amps?

[Steve Gase]

There shouldn't be a difference.
It has been said that the latest "RJ" strings are using the same LED part as used in the Technicolor.  The characteristics should be the same.


The original "RJ" strings used less power.


I recall from a couple years ago, that the rating of the original strings was .356W/pixel.
According to the current page, it is .3W/pixel.
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The new technicolor strings also list .3W/pixel.
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Chip type will not matter... so WS2811 or TM1804 consumes the same power.


I think the discrepancy is the measured current for the technicolor strings...  100-pixels (technicolor) use 5.5A.  128-pixels (RJ's original) use under 4A.


It seems that the specs on Ray's site are not matching real world experience.


I believe there has been confirmation of the increased power consumption...  but maybe others need to also check this out.

[zach stoltenberg]

I am sorry but this incorrect. The wire is what causes the voltage drop. The resistors are not in series with the 12 volt feed. 12v passes directly though each node to the next. If this was not true only the first node would work correct and the resistors on the nod would need to be the size of hot dog to handle the wattage of power being dissipated.

I normally do not chime in but when I see incorrect information that may confuse members I want to make sure we clear it up. The only voltage drop in the string from the supply 12v is loss do to wire, pcb traces on each node from in to out on power and the solder joints on the pcb attaching the power wire.

RJ

I believe what I said was misunderstood and taken out of context.  I never said the resistors were wired in series.  What I said was that the voltage drops after each node along the string (which is correct) and that drop is due to distance, resistance of the wire, and power used (including the LED, resistors, IC, traces, joints, etc.) at each PCB along the run (which is also correct).  Yes the connection is a through and through type to try to improve this.  The design isn't perfect, none is, but it's always getting better.  I'm hoping that the V2 strings will allow more than 100 nodes, possibly close to one universe, but it's a balance between keeping them affordable and making them the best they can be within the constraints.  As I said before, hopefully some of the new solutions for power injection make it not as big of a deal, hopefully that's a solution for those with systems limited on amperage.  The only goal with these was to develop a more consistent and versatile pixel without the problems of the previous generations.  There's still been issues and problems identified and design changes have been made to address them, hopefully the community as a whole keeps getting better product to chose from. Still beats the hell outta dipping nodes in plastidip.

[sittinguphigh]

Zach please don't take this wrong. The fact just like RJ you saw a need for a product and took his time and effort to come up with some thing that would work is appreciated by every one here. My hat off to you and RJ.

This sounds like the node is drawing more amps or volts.
If the wiring is the same size and same length.
If the wiring is the same.
Then it seems to me the node has to be the draw. Just as you say.
How does the way the injection process being done effect the draw?
Or should I say the parts and way the connection is done that would effect the draw?
There is a product Ray has right now that can use 128 nodes.
But as you showed doesn't hold up well.

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[tbone321]

Excuse me for not understanding. But what is the difference in wiring of the  RJ's 12V strings and the Technicolor strings that drops the voltage or amps?

It looks like you are trying to make things more complicated than it needs to be.  The change is that these pixels are using a brigher LED that draws a little more current.  This added current draw per node adds up when you are talking about 100+ nodes.  There is no difference in the wiring of the string itself.  Where the differences may come in is in how they are connected to the controller.  The current configuration of the hub does not allow it to supply 5+ amps to a single string.  This is also why the SCC has a channel limit of 128 nodes, to prevent people from connecting a 200 node string to a single SSC and pushing the current draw beyond its limits.  These limitations were based on the current draw of the nodes available at the time of design and the wire type being used. 

RJ based his design on using pre-made CAT5 cables and determined that 4A was a safe amount of current that CAT5 could handle.  This would supply enough power to light up 128 nodes and using 12V, all connections can be made at one end of the string without any noticeable dimming from one end of the string to the other.  If the string length (number of nodes) of these newer node strings exceeds the current hub limit per port of 4A, then you need to use power injection to reduce the current node on the SCC and the hub port which changes the way the string is connected to the system.  Basically, all you are doing is counting the number of nodes that come up to around 4A and injecting another 12V source from that point on.   

[RJ]

I am sorry but this incorrect. The wire is what causes the voltage drop. The resistors are not in series with the 12 volt feed. 12v passes directly though each node to the next. If this was not true only the first node would work correct and the resistors on the nod would need to be the size of hot dog to handle the wattage of power being dissipated.

I normally do not chime in but when I see incorrect information that may confuse members I want to make sure we clear it up. The only voltage drop in the string from the supply 12v is loss do to wire, pcb traces on each node from in to out on power and the solder joints on the pcb attaching the power wire.

RJ

I believe what I said was misunderstood and taken out of context.  I never said the resistors were wired in series.  What I said was that the voltage drops after each node along the string (which is correct) and that drop is due to distance, resistance of the wire, and power used (including the LED, resistors, IC, traces, joints, etc.) at each PCB along the run (which is also correct).  Yes the connection is a through and through type to try to improve this.  The design isn't perfect, none is, but it's always getting better.  I'm hoping that the V2 strings will allow more than 100 nodes, possibly close to one universe, but it's a balance between keeping them affordable and making them the best they can be within the constraints.  As I said before, hopefully some of the new solutions for power injection make it not as big of a deal, hopefully that's a solution for those with systems limited on amperage.  The only goal with these was to develop a more consistent and versatile pixel without the problems of the previous generations.  There's still been issues and problems identified and design changes have been made to address them, hopefully the community as a whole keeps getting better product to chose from. Still beats the hell outta dipping nodes in plastidip.

Zach,

 You replied as if I am attacking you about your nodes. I said nothing about your nodes. I was refering to you saying that :

"Wire size, at least in the case of 100 count string, is irrelevant.  The drop is due to loss at each pixel from the resistors. "

This clearly reads as if you believed the resistors are to blame for the voltage drop of the supply line and I am pointing out it is not that way and the wire size is everything, so it is not irrelevant. there is no reason for you to take my post as hostile as it was not. It was to make sure people were not confused.

RJ

[sittinguphigh]

This is so confusing. 

The information for Rays shows the wire size is the same.
The length between the wires is about the same.
The node seems to be the same.
There are only so many parts.
The chip is different.
What else is different?
Does any one have the electronic schematics for both and that can read them?
One thing I can say you don't see any WS2811 chip strings going to 128 nodes?
Has any one done any current and volt checking of both strings to compare?

Interesting note the nodes used in both can handle Brightness: 1000-2000mcd.

[keitha43]

According to the wiki, the original smartstring nodes only used 29milliamps of current per node. Different node types had different limits as each type used different current amounts (for example the plastic rectangles used 52milliamps and had an 80 node limit). According to Steve's testing the Technicolor strings are using 55milliamps. Quite an increase. However according to Ray's website the current generation of smartstrings use 55-60milliamps per node. So if that is true it also would need power injection to reach the 128 node limit without gradual dimming. (If I am incorrect feel free to correct me.) I am not sure what the specs were for the first generation ip68 nodes almost 2 years ago, but I ran 84 nodes and couldn't see an intensity difference from beginning to end on those.

[tbone321]

The problem as said before, is not an intensity issue down the string.  It is simply a matter of exceeding the current delivery that a single port of the hub can deliver with the current setup and exceeding it can blow the fuse.  It seems that no matter how bright they get, it's still not bright enough for some so they keep making them bigger and brighter and more light out, more power in.

[sittinguphigh]

I know you can very the current and adjust it to a max.
So what you saying that the Technicolor nodes are adjusted higher then the RJ nodes.
So if that was true as long as you set the intensity low on your program all 100 nodes would stay the same.
Only after exceeding a certain limit of current on each node you would see a dimming down of some of the nodes at the end.

[txag2008]

I plan on using the same power supply for all my pixels and injection power. 

For my own understanding (and hopefully for others) I have drawn up a few diagrams to do the injection.  The only thing I didn't draw was the ground wire on the injection points since I'm still not sure if it is needed.

Look right?

[Steve Gase]

I plan on using the same power supply for all my pixels and injection power. 

For my own understanding (and hopefully for others) I have drawn up a few diagrams to do the injection.  The only thing I didn't draw was the ground wire on the injection points since I'm still not sure if it is needed.

Look right?

with option #1 you still need to break the 12v+ connection midway between supplies... If you use different supplies, that is.

[txag2008]

with option #1 you still need to break the 12v+ connection midway between supplies... If you use different supplies, that is.

Right, that is why I specified that I plan on using the same supply.